[Bill Voight]

Sports fans,

My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP home
edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or not, I
actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the replacement
box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install the backup/restore
software. Where can I get it?

Thanks,



bv

[Carey Frisch [MVP]]

Installing the Backup Program on the Home Version
http://www.onecomputerguy.com/windowsxp_tips.htm#backup_home

HOW TO: Use Backup to Back Up Files and Folders on Your Computer in Windows XP
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;308422&Product=winxp

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows XP - Shell/User
Microsoft Newsgroups

Get Windows XP Service Pack 2 with Advanced Security Technologies:
http://www.microsoft.com/athome/security/protect/windowsxp/choose.mspx

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Bill Voight" wrote:

| Sports fans,
|
| My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP home
| edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or not, I
| actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the replacement
| box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install the backup/restore
| software. Where can I get it?
|
| Thanks,
|
| bv

[Bruce Chambers]

Bill Voight wrote:
> Sports fans,
>
> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP home
> edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or not, I
> actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the replacement
> box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install the backup/restore
> software. Where can I get it?
>


Contact the computer's manufacturer.

Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer manufacturers to
provide a means of returning the computer to its original, ex-factory
state. The particular method of recovery, however, is left entirely to
the discretion of each individual computer manufacturer.

Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual obligation to Microsoft
by providing a means of returning the PC to its ex-factory state,
whether it's a Recovery CD or a Recovery Partition. They are not
legally obliged to provide a true installation CD as part of the sale.
Reputable, customer-service aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway, do
provide a full OEM installation CD, that does permit custom
installations and repairs. However, many uncaring OEMs, such as
eMachines, Compaq, HP, and Sony, in an effort to save pennies and reduce
their support costs by having to hire support people that need only say
"Boot from the Recovery CD to return your PC to its original condition,"
provide only a CD bearing a disk image of the hard drive as it left the
factory.

Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay for."

--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once. - RAH

[Technical Ecstasy]

Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do this in the first
place.You should be provided with a full copy of the OS.Or is it another
attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy? (Having the paying customer pretty
much screwed in the end)

"Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Bill Voight wrote:
>> Sports fans,
>>
>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP home
>> edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or not, I
>> actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the replacement
>> box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install the backup/restore
>> software. Where can I get it?
>>
>
>
> Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>
> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer manufacturers to provide
> a means of returning the computer to its original, ex-factory state. The
> particular method of recovery, however, is left entirely to the discretion
> of each individual computer manufacturer.
>
> Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual obligation to Microsoft by
> providing a means of returning the PC to its ex-factory state, whether
> it's a Recovery CD or a Recovery Partition. They are not legally obliged
> to provide a true installation CD as part of the sale. Reputable,
> customer-service aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway, do provide a full OEM
> installation CD, that does permit custom installations and repairs.
> However, many uncaring OEMs, such as eMachines, Compaq, HP, and Sony, in
> an effort to save pennies and reduce their support costs by having to hire
> support people that need only say "Boot from the Recovery CD to return
> your PC to its original condition," provide only a CD bearing a disk image
> of the hard drive as it left the factory.
>
> Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay for."
>
> --
>
> Bruce Chambers
>
> Help us help you:
> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>
> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
> both at once. - RAH

[RRR_News]

Bill,
1. The seller/manufacturer should have given you a Recovery/Restore CD with
COA sticker on PC, need to contact them for a replacement, many like Dell
would not do this after the initial 30 day warranty.

2. There might be a Recovery/Restore partition on the HDD, you should be
able to run the recovery/retore from there. Many manufacturer have been
doing it this way such as Compaq/HP. Dell has started doing this with some
of their home models, but sometimes if you contact them within 30 days of
purchase, they may send you the Recovery/Restore CD.

3. Also if the XP box came with a CD Burner, you should be able to create a
recovery/restore CD. Be aware that you get one chance in many cases to this.
If it fails, you will need to get technical help from the PC manufacturer.

*** For those planning to change the drive partitions on the PC's HDD,
either right out of the box, or later on, make sure that you make the
backup restore/recovery CD first before making changes. ***

4. You may need to purchase a new retail copy of XP. And then go the PC
manufacturer's website; get all the drivers for the hardware on your PC,
especially laptops. In some cases, Windows XP generic drivers will not work
on specific laptops/notebooks.

--

Click on Link to Add MS to your News Reader: news://msnews.microsoft.com
Rich/rerat

(RRR News) <message rule>
<<Previous Text Snipped to Save Bandwidth When Appropriate>>




"Bill Voight" wrote:

| Sports fans,
|
| My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP home
| edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or not, I
| actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the replacement
| box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install the backup/restore
| software. Where can I get it?
|
| Thanks,
|
| bv

[Bill Voight]

Carey Frisch [MVP] wrote:
> Installing the Backup Program on the Home Version
> http://www.onecomputerguy.com/windowsxp_tips.htm#backup_home
>
> HOW TO: Use Backup to Back Up Files and Folders on Your Computer in Windows XP
> http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;308422&Product=winxp
>
Carey,

Thanks for the answer. I have restored some of the stuff I need already.

As an aside, newsgroups are an incredible source of info. I'm a UNIX
engineer (mostly Solaris) and the unix groups work much the same way-
there's always somebody with the answer.

Anyway, have a good one. I owe you a chilled beverage if you're ever in
the DC area.

BV

[Richard Urban]

You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way for
customers to get back to the way the computer was when they opened the box?
That's pretty severe! They're NOT going to give you a full CD anymore - not
at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People want cheap, they
get cheap! Pay $4200 for a PC from Alienware and you get a full Windows XP
CD. But NOT at $399.95.

One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of their
computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the computers they
sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers. The Windows XP CD
only has generic drivers. The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company
for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power supply at a
local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a replacement M/B
that will physically mount in the Dell case. You can't - different hole
locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their exorbitant prices!

Another reason they do it this way is because they get their 20 cents for
every box that they deliver that has certain 3rd party crap installed on it,
such as AOL, Real Player, backdoor web etc.

This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old, old
discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery options. If
Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would probably get
"nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)

If you knew as much as you thought you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!


"Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
news:OpY9CIpeFHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do this in the
> first place.You should be provided with a full copy of the OS.Or is it
> another attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy? (Having the paying
> customer pretty much screwed in the end)
>
> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> Bill Voight wrote:
>>> Sports fans,
>>>
>>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP home
>>> edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or not, I
>>> actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the replacement
>>> box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install the backup/restore
>>> software. Where can I get it?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>
>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer manufacturers to provide
>> a means of returning the computer to its original, ex-factory state. The
>> particular method of recovery, however, is left entirely to the
>> discretion of each individual computer manufacturer.
>>
>> Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual obligation to Microsoft by
>> providing a means of returning the PC to its ex-factory state, whether
>> it's a Recovery CD or a Recovery Partition. They are not legally obliged
>> to provide a true installation CD as part of the sale. Reputable,
>> customer-service aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway, do provide a full OEM
>> installation CD, that does permit custom installations and repairs.
>> However, many uncaring OEMs, such as eMachines, Compaq, HP, and Sony, in
>> an effort to save pennies and reduce their support costs by having to
>> hire support people that need only say "Boot from the Recovery CD to
>> return your PC to its original condition," provide only a CD bearing a
>> disk image of the hard drive as it left the factory.
>>
>> Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay for."
>>
>> --
>>
>> Bruce Chambers
>>
>> Help us help you:
>> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>
>> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
>> both at once. - RAH
>
>

[Bill Voight]

Technical Ecstasy wrote:
> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do this in the first
> place.You should be provided with a full copy of the OS.Or is it another
> attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy? (Having the paying customer pretty
> much screwed in the end)
>
> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>
>>Bill Voight wrote:
>>
>>>Sports fans,
>>>
>>>My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP home
>>>edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or not, I
>>>actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the replacement
>>>box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install the backup/restore
>>>software. Where can I get it?
>>>
>>
>>
>>Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>
>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer manufacturers to provide
>>a means of returning the computer to its original, ex-factory state. The
>>particular method of recovery, however, is left entirely to the discretion
>>of each individual computer manufacturer.
>>
>> Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual obligation to Microsoft by
>>providing a means of returning the PC to its ex-factory state, whether
>>it's a Recovery CD or a Recovery Partition. They are not legally obliged
>>to provide a true installation CD as part of the sale. Reputable,
>>customer-service aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway, do provide a full OEM
>>installation CD, that does permit custom installations and repairs.
>>However, many uncaring OEMs, such as eMachines, Compaq, HP, and Sony, in
>>an effort to save pennies and reduce their support costs by having to hire
>>support people that need only say "Boot from the Recovery CD to return
>>your PC to its original condition," provide only a CD bearing a disk image
>>of the hard drive as it left the factory.
>>
>> Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay for."
>>
>>--
>>
>>Bruce Chambers
>>
>>Help us help you:
>>http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>
>>You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
>>both at once. - RAH
>
>
>
Microsoft- screwing the customer? Say it ain't so!

[Technical Ecstasy]

Did you even read my post? What I was implying and thought was pretty clear
was that the OEM computer manufactures and Microsoft are screwing me by not
giving me a "full' copy of the OS that I paid for. OEM manufactures are
saving a few penny's per cd by only providing "restore disks" and Microsoft
thinks it is cutting down on piracy by *allowing* the OEM's to do this.
As for your tirade in response to my comment,

|You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way for
|customers to get back to the way the computer was when they opened
|the box?

No. I'm saying the exact opposite.

|They're NOT going to give you a full CD anymore - not
|at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People want cheap

Why is that extra nickel per unit going to break Dell? Of course not!

|One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of their
|computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the computers
|they
|sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers

So what. Supply a separate disk with drivers.

|The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company
|for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power supply at |a
local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a replacement |M/B
that will physically mount in the Dell case. You can't - different hole
|locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their exorbitant prices!

I agree with you but it has nothing to do with where I get a *full* copy of
the OS or not.They can still provide another disk.

|This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old, old
|discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery options. If
|Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would probably get
|"nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.

I don't care if you think it's been beaten like a dead horse, it's still
wrong and will be wrong in three more years or fifty more years.
I don't know where your coming from dude but it looks like this bothers you
a great deal


Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:%23bz1SfpeFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way for
> customers to get back to the way the computer was when they opened the
> box? That's pretty severe! They're NOT going to give you a full CD
> anymore - not at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People
> want cheap, they get cheap! Pay $4200 for a PC from Alienware and you get
> a full Windows XP CD. But NOT at $399.95.
>
> One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of their
> computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the computers
> they sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers. The Windows
> XP CD only has generic drivers. The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their
> company for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power supply
> at a local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a
> replacement M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case. You can't -
> different hole locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their exorbitant
> prices!
>
> Another reason they do it this way is because they get their 20 cents for
> every box that they deliver that has certain 3rd party crap installed on
> it, such as AOL, Real Player, backdoor web etc.
>
> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old, old
> discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery options. If
> Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would probably get
> "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Richard Urban
>
> aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)
>
> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>
>
> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
> news:OpY9CIpeFHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do this in the
>> first place.You should be provided with a full copy of the OS.Or is it
>> another attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy? (Having the paying
>> customer pretty much screwed in the end)
>>
>> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
>> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>> Bill Voight wrote:
>>>> Sports fans,
>>>>
>>>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP home
>>>> edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or not, I
>>>> actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the replacement
>>>> box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install the backup/restore
>>>> software. Where can I get it?
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>>
>>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer manufacturers to
>>> provide a means of returning the computer to its original, ex-factory
>>> state. The particular method of recovery, however, is left entirely to
>>> the discretion of each individual computer manufacturer.
>>>
>>> Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual obligation to Microsoft by
>>> providing a means of returning the PC to its ex-factory state, whether
>>> it's a Recovery CD or a Recovery Partition. They are not legally
>>> obliged to provide a true installation CD as part of the sale.
>>> Reputable, customer-service aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway, do
>>> provide a full OEM installation CD, that does permit custom
>>> installations and repairs. However, many uncaring OEMs, such as
>>> eMachines, Compaq, HP, and Sony, in an effort to save pennies and reduce
>>> their support costs by having to hire support people that need only say
>>> "Boot from the Recovery CD to return your PC to its original condition,"
>>> provide only a CD bearing a disk image of the hard drive as it left the
>>> factory.
>>>
>>> Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay for."
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Bruce Chambers
>>>
>>> Help us help you:
>>> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>>
>>> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
>>> both at once. - RAH
>>
>>
>
>

[RobertVA]

Technical Ecstasy wrote:

> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do this in the first
> place.You should be provided with a full copy of the OS.Or is it another
> attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy? (Having the paying customer pretty
> much screwed in the end)
>
> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>
>>Bill Voight wrote:
>>
>>>Sports fans,
>>>
>>>My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP home
>>>edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or not, I
>>>actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the replacement
>>>box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install the backup/restore
>>>software. Where can I get it?
>>>
>>
>>
>>Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>
>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer manufacturers to provide
>>a means of returning the computer to its original, ex-factory state. The
>>particular method of recovery, however, is left entirely to the discretion
>>of each individual computer manufacturer.
>>
>> Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual obligation to Microsoft by
>>providing a means of returning the PC to its ex-factory state, whether
>>it's a Recovery CD or a Recovery Partition. They are not legally obliged
>>to provide a true installation CD as part of the sale. Reputable,
>>customer-service aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway, do provide a full OEM
>>installation CD, that does permit custom installations and repairs.
>>However, many uncaring OEMs, such as eMachines, Compaq, HP, and Sony, in
>>an effort to save pennies and reduce their support costs by having to hire
>>support people that need only say "Boot from the Recovery CD to return
>>your PC to its original condition," provide only a CD bearing a disk image
>>of the hard drive as it left the factory.
>>
>> Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay for."
>>
>>--
>>
>>Bruce Chambers
>>
>>Help us help you:
>>http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>
>>You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
>>both at once. - RAH

More likely the lack of restore CDs is motivated by OEMs trying to prop
up their paid "Customer Support" revenue. Hard drive dies: have to buy
replacement drive from computer manufacturer to get new restore
partition. Accedently destroy restore partition on hard drive: have to
buy restore CD from manufacturer. If ANY hardware problem inside the
case causes problem you might even have to ship the thing back because
there are "no consumer serviceable parts inside", thus the manufacturer
makes some revenue from labor charges in addition to the revenue from
parts sales. Your computer might even end up in a pool of units to be
serviced while you get back a another system that has been "factory
refurbished".

Fortunately many localy owned custom builders supply a generic OEM
installation CD and the driver CDs that come with the OEM companents the
computer is built with.

[Richard Urban]

For the record, I don't like what the OEM are doing any more than anyone
else does!

The OEM "may" be screwing you by not supplying a full CD that cost $299, but
it is not Microsoft's fault. If Microsoft didn't step in you would likely
have NOTHING. What do you expect with PC's in the $400-500 range. Because
Microsoft "mandates" that you must have a way to return your system to a
usable state - the OEM's are complying - as cheaply as they can. Without
this mandate do you think you would have "any" way to repair your system
when you screw it up? Likely NOT!

So how is Microsoft screwing you? In my eyes they are looking out for you!

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

If you knew as much as you thought you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!


"Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
news:ODrI%23byeFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> Did you even read my post? What I was implying and thought was pretty
> clear was that the OEM computer manufactures and Microsoft are screwing me
> by not giving me a "full' copy of the OS that I paid for. OEM manufactures
> are saving a few penny's per cd by only providing "restore disks" and
> Microsoft thinks it is cutting down on piracy by *allowing* the OEM's to
> do this.
> As for your tirade in response to my comment,
>
> |You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way for
> |customers to get back to the way the computer was when they opened
> |the box?
>
> No. I'm saying the exact opposite.
>
> |They're NOT going to give you a full CD anymore - not
> |at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People want cheap
>
> Why is that extra nickel per unit going to break Dell? Of course not!
>
> |One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of their
> |computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the computers
> |they
> |sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers
>
> So what. Supply a separate disk with drivers.
>
> |The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company
> |for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power supply at |a
> local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a replacement
> |M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case. You can't - different
> hole
> |locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their exorbitant prices!
>
> I agree with you but it has nothing to do with where I get a *full* copy
> of the OS or not.They can still provide another disk.
>
> |This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old, old
> |discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery options. If
> |Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would probably get
> |"nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.
>
> I don't care if you think it's been beaten like a dead horse, it's still
> wrong and will be wrong in three more years or fifty more years.
> I don't know where your coming from dude but it looks like this bothers
> you a great deal
>
>
> Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:%23bz1SfpeFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way for
>> customers to get back to the way the computer was when they opened the
>> box? That's pretty severe! They're NOT going to give you a full CD
>> anymore - not at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People
>> want cheap, they get cheap! Pay $4200 for a PC from Alienware and you get
>> a full Windows XP CD. But NOT at $399.95.
>>
>> One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of their
>> computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the computers
>> they sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers. The Windows
>> XP CD only has generic drivers. The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their
>> company for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power
>> supply at a local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a
>> replacement M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case. You can't -
>> different hole locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their exorbitant
>> prices!
>>
>> Another reason they do it this way is because they get their 20 cents for
>> every box that they deliver that has certain 3rd party crap installed on
>> it, such as AOL, Real Player, backdoor web etc.
>>
>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old, old
>> discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery options. If
>> Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would probably get
>> "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> Richard Urban
>>
>> aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)
>>
>> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>>
>>
>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>> news:OpY9CIpeFHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do this in the
>>> first place.You should be provided with a full copy of the OS.Or is it
>>> another attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy? (Having the paying
>>> customer pretty much screwed in the end)
>>>
>>> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
>>> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>> Bill Voight wrote:
>>>>> Sports fans,
>>>>>
>>>>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP home
>>>>> edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or not, I
>>>>> actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the
>>>>> replacement box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install the
>>>>> backup/restore software. Where can I get it?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>>>
>>>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer manufacturers to
>>>> provide a means of returning the computer to its original, ex-factory
>>>> state. The particular method of recovery, however, is left entirely to
>>>> the discretion of each individual computer manufacturer.
>>>>
>>>> Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual obligation to Microsoft
>>>> by providing a means of returning the PC to its ex-factory state,
>>>> whether it's a Recovery CD or a Recovery Partition. They are not
>>>> legally obliged to provide a true installation CD as part of the sale.
>>>> Reputable, customer-service aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway, do
>>>> provide a full OEM installation CD, that does permit custom
>>>> installations and repairs. However, many uncaring OEMs, such as
>>>> eMachines, Compaq, HP, and Sony, in an effort to save pennies and
>>>> reduce their support costs by having to hire support people that need
>>>> only say "Boot from the Recovery CD to return your PC to its original
>>>> condition," provide only a CD bearing a disk image of the hard drive as
>>>> it left the factory.
>>>>
>>>> Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay for."
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Bruce Chambers
>>>>
>>>> Help us help you:
>>>> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>>>
>>>> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
>>>> both at once. - RAH
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Ken Blake]

In news:OwepeS2eFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
Richard Urban <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> typed:

> For the record, I don't like what the OEM are doing any more
> than
> anyone else does!
>
> The OEM "may" be screwing you by not supplying a full CD that
> cost
> $299, but it is not Microsoft's fault. If Microsoft didn't step
> in
> you would likely have NOTHING. What do you expect with PC's in
> the
> $400-500 range. Because Microsoft "mandates" that you must have
> a way
> to return your system to a usable state - the OEM's are
> complying -
> as cheaply as they can. Without this mandate do you think you
> would
> have "any" way to repair your system when you screw it up?
> Likely NOT!
>
> So how is Microsoft screwing you? In my eyes they are looking
> out for
> you!


I agree with all the above, except that I don't even think the
OEM is screwing him. The OEM almost certainly gave him what it
said it would give him. He might not have realized what he was or
wasn't getting, but that's because he failed to do his homework.

Personally, I would never choose to buy a computer that didn't
come with at least an OEM installation CD; if someone chooses to
buy a computer without one, because the price is attractive, and
then complains that there's no CD, he has nobody to blame but
himself.

--
Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
Please reply to the newsgroup


> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
> news:ODrI%23byeFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> Did you even read my post? What I was implying and thought was
>> pretty
>> clear was that the OEM computer manufactures and Microsoft are
>> screwing me by not giving me a "full' copy of the OS that I
>> paid
>> for. OEM manufactures are saving a few penny's per cd by only
>> providing "restore disks" and Microsoft thinks it is cutting
>> down on
>> piracy by *allowing* the OEM's to do this.
>> As for your tirade in response to my comment,
>>
>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a
>>> way
>>> for customers to get back to the way the computer was when
>>> they
>>> opened the box?
>>
>> No. I'm saying the exact opposite.
>>
>>> They're NOT going to give you a full CD anymore - not
>>> at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People
>>> want cheap
>>
>> Why is that extra nickel per unit going to break Dell? Of
>> course not!
>>
>>> One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most
>>> of
>>> their computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware
>>> in the
>>> computers they
>>> sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers
>>
>> So what. Supply a separate disk with drivers.
>>
>>> The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company
>>> for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power
>>> supply
>>> at |a
>> local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a
>> replacement
>>> M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case. You can't -
>>> different hole locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their
>>> exorbitant prices!
>>
>> I agree with you but it has nothing to do with where I get a
>> *full*
>> copy of the OS or not.They can still provide another disk.
>>
>>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an
>>> old,
>>> old discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery
>>> options. If Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you
>>> would
>>> probably get "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq
>>> (especially) etc!.
>>
>> I don't care if you think it's been beaten like a dead horse,
>> it's
>> still wrong and will be wrong in three more years or fifty
>> more
>> years. I don't know where your coming from dude but it looks
>> like this
>> bothers you a great deal
>>
>>
>> Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> message
>> news:%23bz1SfpeFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a
>>> way
>>> for customers to get back to the way the computer was when
>>> they
>>> opened the box? That's pretty severe! They're NOT going to
>>> give you
>>> a full CD anymore - not at the PC prices that the public is
>>> clamoring for. People want cheap, they get cheap! Pay $4200
>>> for a
>>> PC from Alienware and you get a full Windows XP CD. But NOT
>>> at
>>> $399.95. One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is
>>> because most of
>>> their computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware
>>> in the
>>> computers they sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary
>>> drivers. The Windows XP CD only has generic drivers. The
>>> OEM's try
>>> to "lock you in" to their company for hardware replacements
>>> and
>>> upgrades. Try getting a power supply at a local PC fair for a
>>> Dell
>>> computer. You can't! Try getting a replacement M/B that will
>>> physically mount in the Dell case. You can't - different hole
>>> locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their exorbitant
>>> prices!
>>>
>>> Another reason they do it this way is because they get their
>>> 20
>>> cents for every box that they deliver that has certain 3rd
>>> party
>>> crap installed on it, such as AOL, Real Player, backdoor web
>>> etc.
>>>
>>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an
>>> old,
>>> old discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery
>>> options. If Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you
>>> would
>>> probably get "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq
>>> (especially) etc!. --
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Richard Urban
>>>
>>> aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)
>>>
>>> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
>>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you
>>> knew!
>>>
>>>
>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>> news:OpY9CIpeFHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do
>>>> this in
>>>> the first place.You should be provided with a full copy of
>>>> the
>>>> OS.Or is it another attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy?
>>>> (Having the paying customer pretty much screwed in the end)
>>>>
>>>> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
>>>> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Bill Voight wrote:
>>>>>> Sports fans,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit
>>>>>> w/preinstalled XP
>>>>>> home edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility
>>>>>> (believe it
>>>>>> or not, I actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box).
>>>>>> Since the replacement box did not come w/an XP CD I have
>>>>>> no way
>>>>>> to install the backup/restore software. Where can I get
>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer
>>>>> manufacturers to
>>>>> provide a means of returning the computer to its original,
>>>>> ex-factory state. The particular method of recovery,
>>>>> however, is
>>>>> left entirely to the discretion of each individual computer
>>>>> manufacturer. Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual
>>>>> obligation to
>>>>> Microsoft by providing a means of returning the PC to its
>>>>> ex-factory state, whether it's a Recovery CD or a Recovery
>>>>> Partition. They are not legally obliged to provide a true
>>>>> installation CD as part of the sale. Reputable,
>>>>> customer-service
>>>>> aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway, do provide a full OEM
>>>>> installation CD, that does permit custom installations and
>>>>> repairs. However, many uncaring OEMs, such as eMachines,
>>>>> Compaq,
>>>>> HP, and Sony, in an effort to save pennies and reduce their
>>>>> support costs by having to hire support people that need
>>>>> only say
>>>>> "Boot from the Recovery CD to return your PC to its
>>>>> original
>>>>> condition," provide only a CD bearing a disk image of the
>>>>> hard
>>>>> drive as it left the factory. Essentially, it boils down to
>>>>> "You get what you pay for."
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce Chambers
>>>>>
>>>>> Help us help you:
>>>>> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>>>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>>>>
>>>>> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever
>>>>> count on
>>>>> having both at once. - RAH

[Technical Ecstasy]

You can't possibly be so obtuse.What are you so hung up on this 299$ dollar
cd price? Xp is sold to OEMs at nowhere near that price and they in fact
press their own cd's. My brother bought a Dell with Win ME on it just before
XP came out. When he called to complain about the OS dell offered him a FULL
copy of XP for 20$. Do you think they lost money on that ? I will repeat
what I said previously; Microsoft can "mandate" the OEMs to provide a full
copy of xp if they wanted to but they don't because not providing a full
copy of the OS discourages the "casual" OS pirate, they have even admitted
this.Also by doing this how much money do you think Microsoft has made by
selling the same customer their OS twice because said customer had to buy
full copy of XP. because of Tec issues?Do you think that this hasn't been
all thought out by Microsoft? Why should I, a paying customer have to pay
for something twice? How is Microsoft screwing me? How are they NOT screwing
me?

"Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:OwepeS2eFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> For the record, I don't like what the OEM are doing any more than anyone
> else does!
>
> The OEM "may" be screwing you by not supplying a full CD that cost $299,
> but it is not Microsoft's fault. If Microsoft didn't step in you would
> likely have NOTHING. What do you expect with PC's in the $400-500 range.
> Because Microsoft "mandates" that you must have a way to return your
> system to a usable state - the OEM's are complying - as cheaply as they
> can. Without this mandate do you think you would have "any" way to repair
> your system when you screw it up? Likely NOT!
>
> So how is Microsoft screwing you? In my eyes they are looking out for you!
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Richard Urban
>
> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>
>
> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
> news:ODrI%23byeFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> Did you even read my post? What I was implying and thought was pretty
>> clear was that the OEM computer manufactures and Microsoft are screwing
>> me by not giving me a "full' copy of the OS that I paid for. OEM
>> manufactures are saving a few penny's per cd by only providing "restore
>> disks" and Microsoft thinks it is cutting down on piracy by *allowing*
>> the OEM's to do this.
>> As for your tirade in response to my comment,
>>
>> |You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way for
>> |customers to get back to the way the computer was when they opened
>> |the box?
>>
>> No. I'm saying the exact opposite.
>>
>> |They're NOT going to give you a full CD anymore - not
>> |at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People want cheap
>>
>> Why is that extra nickel per unit going to break Dell? Of course not!
>>
>> |One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of their
>> |computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the computers
>> |they
>> |sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers
>>
>> So what. Supply a separate disk with drivers.
>>
>> |The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company
>> |for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power supply at |a
>> local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a replacement
>> |M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case. You can't - different
>> hole
>> |locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their exorbitant prices!
>>
>> I agree with you but it has nothing to do with where I get a *full* copy
>> of the OS or not.They can still provide another disk.
>>
>> |This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old, old
>> |discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery options. If
>> |Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would probably get
>> |"nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.
>>
>> I don't care if you think it's been beaten like a dead horse, it's still
>> wrong and will be wrong in three more years or fifty more years.
>> I don't know where your coming from dude but it looks like this bothers
>> you a great deal
>>
>>
>> Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:%23bz1SfpeFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way for
>>> customers to get back to the way the computer was when they opened the
>>> box? That's pretty severe! They're NOT going to give you a full CD
>>> anymore - not at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People
>>> want cheap, they get cheap! Pay $4200 for a PC from Alienware and you
>>> get a full Windows XP CD. But NOT at $399.95.
>>>
>>> One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of their
>>> computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the computers
>>> they sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers. The Windows
>>> XP CD only has generic drivers. The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their
>>> company for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power
>>> supply at a local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a
>>> replacement M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case. You can't -
>>> different hole locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their exorbitant
>>> prices!
>>>
>>> Another reason they do it this way is because they get their 20 cents
>>> for every box that they deliver that has certain 3rd party crap
>>> installed on it, such as AOL, Real Player, backdoor web etc.
>>>
>>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old, old
>>> discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery options. If
>>> Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would probably get
>>> "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Richard Urban
>>>
>>> aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)
>>>
>>> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
>>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>>>
>>>
>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>> news:OpY9CIpeFHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do this in the
>>>> first place.You should be provided with a full copy of the OS.Or is it
>>>> another attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy? (Having the paying
>>>> customer pretty much screwed in the end)
>>>>
>>>> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
>>>> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Bill Voight wrote:
>>>>>> Sports fans,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP home
>>>>>> edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or not, I
>>>>>> actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the
>>>>>> replacement box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install the
>>>>>> backup/restore software. Where can I get it?
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer manufacturers to
>>>>> provide a means of returning the computer to its original, ex-factory
>>>>> state. The particular method of recovery, however, is left entirely
>>>>> to the discretion of each individual computer manufacturer.
>>>>>
>>>>> Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual obligation to Microsoft
>>>>> by providing a means of returning the PC to its ex-factory state,
>>>>> whether it's a Recovery CD or a Recovery Partition. They are not
>>>>> legally obliged to provide a true installation CD as part of the sale.
>>>>> Reputable, customer-service aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway, do
>>>>> provide a full OEM installation CD, that does permit custom
>>>>> installations and repairs. However, many uncaring OEMs, such as
>>>>> eMachines, Compaq, HP, and Sony, in an effort to save pennies and
>>>>> reduce their support costs by having to hire support people that need
>>>>> only say "Boot from the Recovery CD to return your PC to its original
>>>>> condition," provide only a CD bearing a disk image of the hard drive
>>>>> as it left the factory.
>>>>>
>>>>> Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay for."
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Bruce Chambers
>>>>>
>>>>> Help us help you:
>>>>> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>>>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>>>>
>>>>> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
>>>>> having both at once. - RAH
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Technical Ecstasy]

I have full copies of XP for all three of my computers, I am talking in
generalities.I still blame the OEMs because the average user doesn't know
any better and that's why the OEMs get away with it.

"Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote in message
news:eFd%23Bu2eFHA.256@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> In news:OwepeS2eFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
> Richard Urban <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> typed:
>
>> For the record, I don't like what the OEM are doing any more than
>> anyone else does!
>>
>> The OEM "may" be screwing you by not supplying a full CD that cost
>> $299, but it is not Microsoft's fault. If Microsoft didn't step in
>> you would likely have NOTHING. What do you expect with PC's in the
>> $400-500 range. Because Microsoft "mandates" that you must have a way
>> to return your system to a usable state - the OEM's are complying -
>> as cheaply as they can. Without this mandate do you think you would
>> have "any" way to repair your system when you screw it up? Likely NOT!
>>
>> So how is Microsoft screwing you? In my eyes they are looking out for
>> you!
>
>
> I agree with all the above, except that I don't even think the OEM is
> screwing him. The OEM almost certainly gave him what it said it would give
> him. He might not have realized what he was or wasn't getting, but that's
> because he failed to do his homework.
>
> Personally, I would never choose to buy a computer that didn't come with
> at least an OEM installation CD; if someone chooses to buy a computer
> without one, because the price is attractive, and then complains that
> there's no CD, he has nobody to blame but himself.
>
> --
> Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
> Please reply to the newsgroup
>
>
>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>> news:ODrI%23byeFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>> Did you even read my post? What I was implying and thought was pretty
>>> clear was that the OEM computer manufactures and Microsoft are
>>> screwing me by not giving me a "full' copy of the OS that I paid
>>> for. OEM manufactures are saving a few penny's per cd by only
>>> providing "restore disks" and Microsoft thinks it is cutting down on
>>> piracy by *allowing* the OEM's to do this.
>>> As for your tirade in response to my comment,
>>>
>>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way
>>>> for customers to get back to the way the computer was when they
>>>> opened the box?
>>>
>>> No. I'm saying the exact opposite.
>>>
>>>> They're NOT going to give you a full CD anymore - not
>>>> at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People want cheap
>>>
>>> Why is that extra nickel per unit going to break Dell? Of course not!
>>>
>>>> One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of
>>>> their computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the
>>>> computers they
>>>> sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers
>>>
>>> So what. Supply a separate disk with drivers.
>>>
>>>> The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company
>>>> for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power supply
>>>> at |a
>>> local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a
>>> replacement
>>>> M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case. You can't -
>>>> different hole locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their
>>>> exorbitant prices!
>>>
>>> I agree with you but it has nothing to do with where I get a *full*
>>> copy of the OS or not.They can still provide another disk.
>>>
>>>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old,
>>>> old discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery
>>>> options. If Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would
>>>> probably get "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq
>>>> (especially) etc!.
>>>
>>> I don't care if you think it's been beaten like a dead horse, it's
>>> still wrong and will be wrong in three more years or fifty more
>>> years. I don't know where your coming from dude but it looks like this
>>> bothers you a great deal
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:%23bz1SfpeFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way
>>>> for customers to get back to the way the computer was when they
>>>> opened the box? That's pretty severe! They're NOT going to give you
>>>> a full CD anymore - not at the PC prices that the public is
>>>> clamoring for. People want cheap, they get cheap! Pay $4200 for a
>>>> PC from Alienware and you get a full Windows XP CD. But NOT at
>>>> $399.95. One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most
>>>> of
>>>> their computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the
>>>> computers they sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary
>>>> drivers. The Windows XP CD only has generic drivers. The OEM's try
>>>> to "lock you in" to their company for hardware replacements and
>>>> upgrades. Try getting a power supply at a local PC fair for a Dell
>>>> computer. You can't! Try getting a replacement M/B that will
>>>> physically mount in the Dell case. You can't - different hole
>>>> locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their exorbitant prices!
>>>>
>>>> Another reason they do it this way is because they get their 20
>>>> cents for every box that they deliver that has certain 3rd party
>>>> crap installed on it, such as AOL, Real Player, backdoor web etc.
>>>>
>>>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old,
>>>> old discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery
>>>> options. If Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would
>>>> probably get "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq
>>>> (especially) etc!. --
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Richard Urban
>>>>
>>>> aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)
>>>>
>>>> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
>>>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:OpY9CIpeFHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do this in
>>>>> the first place.You should be provided with a full copy of the
>>>>> OS.Or is it another attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy?
>>>>> (Having the paying customer pretty much screwed in the end)
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
>>>>> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Bill Voight wrote:
>>>>>>> Sports fans,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP
>>>>>>> home edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it
>>>>>>> or not, I actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the
>>>>>>> replacement box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way
>>>>>>> to install the backup/restore software. Where can I get it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer manufacturers to
>>>>>> provide a means of returning the computer to its original,
>>>>>> ex-factory state. The particular method of recovery, however, is
>>>>>> left entirely to the discretion of each individual computer
>>>>>> manufacturer. Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual obligation to
>>>>>> Microsoft by providing a means of returning the PC to its
>>>>>> ex-factory state, whether it's a Recovery CD or a Recovery
>>>>>> Partition. They are not legally obliged to provide a true
>>>>>> installation CD as part of the sale. Reputable, customer-service
>>>>>> aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway, do provide a full OEM
>>>>>> installation CD, that does permit custom installations and
>>>>>> repairs. However, many uncaring OEMs, such as eMachines, Compaq,
>>>>>> HP, and Sony, in an effort to save pennies and reduce their
>>>>>> support costs by having to hire support people that need only say
>>>>>> "Boot from the Recovery CD to return your PC to its original
>>>>>> condition," provide only a CD bearing a disk image of the hard
>>>>>> drive as it left the factory. Essentially, it boils down to "You get
>>>>>> what you pay for."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce Chambers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Help us help you:
>>>>>> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>>>>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
>>>>>> having both at once. - RAH
>
>

[Richard Urban]

I suggest the next time you go to a system builder who will build a computer
for you with a copy of Linux installed.

You think you are being screwed now? You don't even know the true feeling!

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

If you knew as much as you thought you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!


"Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
news:%23pTFT02eFHA.2844@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
> You can't possibly be so obtuse.What are you so hung up on this 299$
> dollar cd price? Xp is sold to OEMs at nowhere near that price and they in
> fact press their own cd's. My brother bought a Dell with Win ME on it just
> before XP came out. When he called to complain about the OS dell offered
> him a FULL copy of XP for 20$. Do you think they lost money on that ? I
> will repeat what I said previously; Microsoft can "mandate" the OEMs to
> provide a full copy of xp if they wanted to but they don't because not
> providing a full copy of the OS discourages the "casual" OS pirate, they
> have even admitted this.Also by doing this how much money do you think
> Microsoft has made by selling the same customer their OS twice because
> said customer had to buy full copy of XP. because of Tec issues?Do you
> think that this hasn't been all thought out by Microsoft? Why should I, a
> paying customer have to pay for something twice? How is Microsoft screwing
> me? How are they NOT screwing me?
>
> "Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:OwepeS2eFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>> For the record, I don't like what the OEM are doing any more than anyone
>> else does!
>>
>> The OEM "may" be screwing you by not supplying a full CD that cost $299,
>> but it is not Microsoft's fault. If Microsoft didn't step in you would
>> likely have NOTHING. What do you expect with PC's in the $400-500 range.
>> Because Microsoft "mandates" that you must have a way to return your
>> system to a usable state - the OEM's are complying - as cheaply as they
>> can. Without this mandate do you think you would have "any" way to repair
>> your system when you screw it up? Likely NOT!
>>
>> So how is Microsoft screwing you? In my eyes they are looking out for
>> you!
>>
>> --
>> Regards,
>>
>> Richard Urban
>>
>> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>>
>>
>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>> news:ODrI%23byeFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>> Did you even read my post? What I was implying and thought was pretty
>>> clear was that the OEM computer manufactures and Microsoft are screwing
>>> me by not giving me a "full' copy of the OS that I paid for. OEM
>>> manufactures are saving a few penny's per cd by only providing "restore
>>> disks" and Microsoft thinks it is cutting down on piracy by *allowing*
>>> the OEM's to do this.
>>> As for your tirade in response to my comment,
>>>
>>> |You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way for
>>> |customers to get back to the way the computer was when they opened
>>> |the box?
>>>
>>> No. I'm saying the exact opposite.
>>>
>>> |They're NOT going to give you a full CD anymore - not
>>> |at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People want cheap
>>>
>>> Why is that extra nickel per unit going to break Dell? Of course not!
>>>
>>> |One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of their
>>> |computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the computers
>>> |they
>>> |sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers
>>>
>>> So what. Supply a separate disk with drivers.
>>>
>>> |The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company
>>> |for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power supply at
>>> |a local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a
>>> replacement |M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case. You
>>> can't - different hole
>>> |locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their exorbitant prices!
>>>
>>> I agree with you but it has nothing to do with where I get a *full* copy
>>> of the OS or not.They can still provide another disk.
>>>
>>> |This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old, old
>>> |discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery options. If
>>> |Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would probably get
>>> |"nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.
>>>
>>> I don't care if you think it's been beaten like a dead horse, it's still
>>> wrong and will be wrong in three more years or fifty more years.
>>> I don't know where your coming from dude but it looks like this bothers
>>> you a great deal
>>>
>>>
>>> Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:%23bz1SfpeFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way for
>>>> customers to get back to the way the computer was when they opened the
>>>> box? That's pretty severe! They're NOT going to give you a full CD
>>>> anymore - not at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People
>>>> want cheap, they get cheap! Pay $4200 for a PC from Alienware and you
>>>> get a full Windows XP CD. But NOT at $399.95.
>>>>
>>>> One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of their
>>>> computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the computers
>>>> they sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers. The
>>>> Windows XP CD only has generic drivers. The OEM's try to "lock you in"
>>>> to their company for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a
>>>> power supply at a local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try
>>>> getting a replacement M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case.
>>>> You can't - different hole locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay
>>>> their exorbitant prices!
>>>>
>>>> Another reason they do it this way is because they get their 20 cents
>>>> for every box that they deliver that has certain 3rd party crap
>>>> installed on it, such as AOL, Real Player, backdoor web etc.
>>>>
>>>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old, old
>>>> discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery options. If
>>>> Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would probably get
>>>> "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Richard Urban
>>>>
>>>> aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)
>>>>
>>>> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
>>>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:OpY9CIpeFHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do this in the
>>>>> first place.You should be provided with a full copy of the OS.Or is it
>>>>> another attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy? (Having the paying
>>>>> customer pretty much screwed in the end)
>>>>>
>>>>> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
>>>>> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Bill Voight wrote:
>>>>>>> Sports fans,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP home
>>>>>>> edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or not, I
>>>>>>> actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the
>>>>>>> replacement box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install the
>>>>>>> backup/restore software. Where can I get it?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer manufacturers to
>>>>>> provide a means of returning the computer to its original, ex-factory
>>>>>> state. The particular method of recovery, however, is left entirely
>>>>>> to the discretion of each individual computer manufacturer.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual obligation to Microsoft
>>>>>> by providing a means of returning the PC to its ex-factory state,
>>>>>> whether it's a Recovery CD or a Recovery Partition. They are not
>>>>>> legally obliged to provide a true installation CD as part of the
>>>>>> sale. Reputable, customer-service aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway,
>>>>>> do provide a full OEM installation CD, that does permit custom
>>>>>> installations and repairs. However, many uncaring OEMs, such as
>>>>>> eMachines, Compaq, HP, and Sony, in an effort to save pennies and
>>>>>> reduce their support costs by having to hire support people that need
>>>>>> only say "Boot from the Recovery CD to return your PC to its original
>>>>>> condition," provide only a CD bearing a disk image of the hard drive
>>>>>> as it left the factory.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay for."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bruce Chambers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Help us help you:
>>>>>> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>>>>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
>>>>>> having both at once. - RAH
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Ken Blake]

In news:Outhb32eFHA.228@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
Technical Ecstasy <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> typed:

> I have full copies of XP for all three of my computers, I am
> talking
> in generalities.I still blame the OEMs because the average user
> doesn't know any better and that's why the OEMs get away with
> it.


I've heard that "average user doesn't know any better" argument
before, and I don't buy it. Someone who doesn't much about
computers is exactly the person who most needs to do research
before he buys one. Like it our not, our world is based on the
principal of *caveat emptor*. Buying something based solely on
what the ads for it tell you is just foolhardy.

--
Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
Please reply to the newsgroup


> "Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote in message
> news:eFd%23Bu2eFHA.256@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> In news:OwepeS2eFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
>> Richard Urban <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> typed:
>>
>>> For the record, I don't like what the OEM are doing any more
>>> than
>>> anyone else does!
>>>
>>> The OEM "may" be screwing you by not supplying a full CD that
>>> cost
>>> $299, but it is not Microsoft's fault. If Microsoft didn't
>>> step in
>>> you would likely have NOTHING. What do you expect with PC's
>>> in the
>>> $400-500 range. Because Microsoft "mandates" that you must
>>> have a
>>> way to return your system to a usable state - the OEM's are
>>> complying - as cheaply as they can. Without this mandate do
>>> you
>>> think you would have "any" way to repair your system when you
>>> screw
>>> it up? Likely NOT! So how is Microsoft screwing you? In my
>>> eyes they are looking out
>>> for you!
>>
>>
>> I agree with all the above, except that I don't even think the
>> OEM is
>> screwing him. The OEM almost certainly gave him what it said
>> it
>> would give him. He might not have realized what he was or
>> wasn't
>> getting, but that's because he failed to do his homework.
>>
>> Personally, I would never choose to buy a computer that didn't
>> come
>> with at least an OEM installation CD; if someone chooses to
>> buy a
>> computer without one, because the price is attractive, and
>> then
>> complains that there's no CD, he has nobody to blame but
>> himself.
>>
>> --
>> Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
>> Please reply to the newsgroup
>>
>>
>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>> news:ODrI%23byeFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>> Did you even read my post? What I was implying and thought
>>>> was
>>>> pretty clear was that the OEM computer manufactures and
>>>> Microsoft
>>>> are screwing me by not giving me a "full' copy of the OS
>>>> that I
>>>> paid for. OEM manufactures are saving a few penny's per cd
>>>> by only
>>>> providing "restore disks" and Microsoft thinks it is cutting
>>>> down
>>>> on piracy by *allowing* the OEM's to do this.
>>>> As for your tirade in response to my comment,
>>>>
>>>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer
>>>>> a way
>>>>> for customers to get back to the way the computer was when
>>>>> they
>>>>> opened the box?
>>>>
>>>> No. I'm saying the exact opposite.
>>>>
>>>>> They're NOT going to give you a full CD anymore - not
>>>>> at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People
>>>>> want
>>>>> cheap
>>>>
>>>> Why is that extra nickel per unit going to break Dell? Of
>>>> course
>>>> not!
>>>>> One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because
>>>>> most of
>>>>> their computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware
>>>>> in the
>>>>> computers they
>>>>> sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers
>>>>
>>>> So what. Supply a separate disk with drivers.
>>>>
>>>>> The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company
>>>>> for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power
>>>>> supply
>>>>> at |a
>>>> local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a
>>>> replacement
>>>>> M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case. You
>>>>> can't -
>>>>> different hole locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay
>>>>> their
>>>>> exorbitant prices!
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you but it has nothing to do with where I get a
>>>> *full*
>>>> copy of the OS or not.They can still provide another disk.
>>>>
>>>>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's
>>>>> an old,
>>>>> old discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery
>>>>> options. If Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such,
>>>>> you would
>>>>> probably get "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony -
>>>>> HP/Compaq
>>>>> (especially) etc!.
>>>>
>>>> I don't care if you think it's been beaten like a dead
>>>> horse, it's
>>>> still wrong and will be wrong in three more years or fifty
>>>> more
>>>> years. I don't know where your coming from dude but it looks
>>>> like
>>>> this bothers you a great deal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>> message news:%23bz1SfpeFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer
>>>>> a way
>>>>> for customers to get back to the way the computer was when
>>>>> they
>>>>> opened the box? That's pretty severe! They're NOT going to
>>>>> give
>>>>> you a full CD anymore - not at the PC prices that the
>>>>> public is
>>>>> clamoring for. People want cheap, they get cheap! Pay $4200
>>>>> for a
>>>>> PC from Alienware and you get a full Windows XP CD. But NOT
>>>>> at
>>>>> $399.95. One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is
>>>>> because
>>>>> most of
>>>>> their computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware
>>>>> in the
>>>>> computers they sell. Therefore they MUST supply the
>>>>> necessary
>>>>> drivers. The Windows XP CD only has generic drivers. The
>>>>> OEM's try
>>>>> to "lock you in" to their company for hardware replacements
>>>>> and
>>>>> upgrades. Try getting a power supply at a local PC fair for
>>>>> a Dell
>>>>> computer. You can't! Try getting a replacement M/B that
>>>>> will
>>>>> physically mount in the Dell case. You can't - different
>>>>> hole
>>>>> locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their exorbitant
>>>>> prices!
>>>>>
>>>>> Another reason they do it this way is because they get
>>>>> their 20
>>>>> cents for every box that they deliver that has certain 3rd
>>>>> party
>>>>> crap installed on it, such as AOL, Real Player, backdoor
>>>>> web etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's
>>>>> an old,
>>>>> old discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery
>>>>> options. If Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such,
>>>>> you would
>>>>> probably get "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony -
>>>>> HP/Compaq
>>>>> (especially) etc!. --
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard Urban
>>>>>
>>>>> aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
>>>>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you
>>>>> knew!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:OpY9CIpeFHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do
>>>>>> this in
>>>>>> the first place.You should be provided with a full copy of
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> OS.Or is it another attempt by Microsoft to curtail
>>>>>> piracy?
>>>>>> (Having the paying customer pretty much screwed in the
>>>>>> end)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> Bill Voight wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sports fans,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit
>>>>>>>> w/preinstalled XP
>>>>>>>> home edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility
>>>>>>>> (believe it
>>>>>>>> or not, I actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K
>>>>>>>> box).
>>>>>>>> Since the replacement box did not come w/an XP CD I have
>>>>>>>> no way
>>>>>>>> to install the backup/restore software. Where can I get
>>>>>>>> it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer
>>>>>>> manufacturers
>>>>>>> to provide a means of returning the computer to its
>>>>>>> original,
>>>>>>> ex-factory state. The particular method of recovery,
>>>>>>> however,
>>>>>>> is left entirely to the discretion of each individual
>>>>>>> computer
>>>>>>> manufacturer. Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual
>>>>>>> obligation to Microsoft by providing a means of returning
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> PC to its ex-factory state, whether it's a Recovery CD or
>>>>>>> a Recovery
>>>>>>> Partition. They are not legally obliged to provide a
>>>>>>> true
>>>>>>> installation CD as part of the sale. Reputable,
>>>>>>> customer-service
>>>>>>> aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway, do provide a full OEM
>>>>>>> installation CD, that does permit custom installations
>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>> repairs. However, many uncaring OEMs, such as eMachines,
>>>>>>> Compaq,
>>>>>>> HP, and Sony, in an effort to save pennies and reduce
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> support costs by having to hire support people that need
>>>>>>> only
>>>>>>> say "Boot from the Recovery CD to return your PC to its
>>>>>>> original
>>>>>>> condition," provide only a CD bearing a disk image of the
>>>>>>> hard
>>>>>>> drive as it left the factory. Essentially, it boils down
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> "You get what you pay for."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bruce Chambers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Help us help you:
>>>>>>> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>>>>>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever
>>>>>>> count on
>>>>>>> having both at once. - RAH

[Technical Ecstasy]

And "buyer beware" would be what an apologist for Big Corporate America
would say
"Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote in message
news:usZdh72eFHA.2740@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
> In news:Outhb32eFHA.228@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
> Technical Ecstasy <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> typed:
>
>> I have full copies of XP for all three of my computers, I am talking
>> in generalities.I still blame the OEMs because the average user
>> doesn't know any better and that's why the OEMs get away with it.
>
>
> I've heard that "average user doesn't know any better" argument before,
> and I don't buy it. Someone who doesn't much about computers is exactly
> the person who most needs to do research before he buys one. Like it our
> not, our world is based on the principal of *caveat emptor*. Buying
> something based solely on what the ads for it tell you is just foolhardy.
>
> --
> Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
> Please reply to the newsgroup
>
>
>> "Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote in message
>> news:eFd%23Bu2eFHA.256@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>> In news:OwepeS2eFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
>>> Richard Urban <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> typed:
>>>
>>>> For the record, I don't like what the OEM are doing any more than
>>>> anyone else does!
>>>>
>>>> The OEM "may" be screwing you by not supplying a full CD that cost
>>>> $299, but it is not Microsoft's fault. If Microsoft didn't step in
>>>> you would likely have NOTHING. What do you expect with PC's in the
>>>> $400-500 range. Because Microsoft "mandates" that you must have a
>>>> way to return your system to a usable state - the OEM's are
>>>> complying - as cheaply as they can. Without this mandate do you
>>>> think you would have "any" way to repair your system when you screw
>>>> it up? Likely NOT! So how is Microsoft screwing you? In my eyes they
>>>> are looking out
>>>> for you!
>>>
>>>
>>> I agree with all the above, except that I don't even think the OEM is
>>> screwing him. The OEM almost certainly gave him what it said it
>>> would give him. He might not have realized what he was or wasn't
>>> getting, but that's because he failed to do his homework.
>>>
>>> Personally, I would never choose to buy a computer that didn't come
>>> with at least an OEM installation CD; if someone chooses to buy a
>>> computer without one, because the price is attractive, and then
>>> complains that there's no CD, he has nobody to blame but himself.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
>>> Please reply to the newsgroup
>>>
>>>
>>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:ODrI%23byeFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>>> Did you even read my post? What I was implying and thought was
>>>>> pretty clear was that the OEM computer manufactures and Microsoft
>>>>> are screwing me by not giving me a "full' copy of the OS that I
>>>>> paid for. OEM manufactures are saving a few penny's per cd by only
>>>>> providing "restore disks" and Microsoft thinks it is cutting down
>>>>> on piracy by *allowing* the OEM's to do this.
>>>>> As for your tirade in response to my comment,
>>>>>
>>>>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way
>>>>>> for customers to get back to the way the computer was when they
>>>>>> opened the box?
>>>>>
>>>>> No. I'm saying the exact opposite.
>>>>>
>>>>>> They're NOT going to give you a full CD anymore - not
>>>>>> at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People want
>>>>>> cheap
>>>>>
>>>>> Why is that extra nickel per unit going to break Dell? Of course
>>>>> not!
>>>>>> One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of
>>>>>> their computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the
>>>>>> computers they
>>>>>> sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers
>>>>>
>>>>> So what. Supply a separate disk with drivers.
>>>>>
>>>>>> The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company
>>>>>> for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power supply
>>>>>> at |a
>>>>> local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a
>>>>> replacement
>>>>>> M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case. You can't -
>>>>>> different hole locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their
>>>>>> exorbitant prices!
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with you but it has nothing to do with where I get a *full*
>>>>> copy of the OS or not.They can still provide another disk.
>>>>>
>>>>>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old,
>>>>>> old discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery
>>>>>> options. If Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would
>>>>>> probably get "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq
>>>>>> (especially) etc!.
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't care if you think it's been beaten like a dead horse, it's
>>>>> still wrong and will be wrong in three more years or fifty more
>>>>> years. I don't know where your coming from dude but it looks like
>>>>> this bothers you a great deal
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>> message news:%23bz1SfpeFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way
>>>>>> for customers to get back to the way the computer was when they
>>>>>> opened the box? That's pretty severe! They're NOT going to give
>>>>>> you a full CD anymore - not at the PC prices that the public is
>>>>>> clamoring for. People want cheap, they get cheap! Pay $4200 for a
>>>>>> PC from Alienware and you get a full Windows XP CD. But NOT at
>>>>>> $399.95. One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because
>>>>>> most of
>>>>>> their computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the
>>>>>> computers they sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary
>>>>>> drivers. The Windows XP CD only has generic drivers. The OEM's try
>>>>>> to "lock you in" to their company for hardware replacements and
>>>>>> upgrades. Try getting a power supply at a local PC fair for a Dell
>>>>>> computer. You can't! Try getting a replacement M/B that will
>>>>>> physically mount in the Dell case. You can't - different hole
>>>>>> locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their exorbitant prices!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Another reason they do it this way is because they get their 20
>>>>>> cents for every box that they deliver that has certain 3rd party
>>>>>> crap installed on it, such as AOL, Real Player, backdoor web etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old,
>>>>>> old discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery
>>>>>> options. If Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would
>>>>>> probably get "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq
>>>>>> (especially) etc!. --
>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Richard Urban
>>>>>>
>>>>>> aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
>>>>>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:OpY9CIpeFHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do this in
>>>>>>> the first place.You should be provided with a full copy of the
>>>>>>> OS.Or is it another attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy?
>>>>>>> (Having the paying customer pretty much screwed in the end)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> Bill Voight wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Sports fans,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP
>>>>>>>>> home edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it
>>>>>>>>> or not, I actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box).
>>>>>>>>> Since the replacement box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way
>>>>>>>>> to install the backup/restore software. Where can I get it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer manufacturers
>>>>>>>> to provide a means of returning the computer to its original,
>>>>>>>> ex-factory state. The particular method of recovery, however,
>>>>>>>> is left entirely to the discretion of each individual computer
>>>>>>>> manufacturer. Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual
>>>>>>>> obligation to Microsoft by providing a means of returning the
>>>>>>>> PC to its ex-factory state, whether it's a Recovery CD or a
>>>>>>>> Recovery
>>>>>>>> Partition. They are not legally obliged to provide a true
>>>>>>>> installation CD as part of the sale. Reputable, customer-service
>>>>>>>> aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway, do provide a full OEM
>>>>>>>> installation CD, that does permit custom installations and
>>>>>>>> repairs. However, many uncaring OEMs, such as eMachines, Compaq,
>>>>>>>> HP, and Sony, in an effort to save pennies and reduce their
>>>>>>>> support costs by having to hire support people that need only
>>>>>>>> say "Boot from the Recovery CD to return your PC to its original
>>>>>>>> condition," provide only a CD bearing a disk image of the hard
>>>>>>>> drive as it left the factory. Essentially, it boils down to
>>>>>>>> "You get what you pay for."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bruce Chambers
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Help us help you:
>>>>>>>> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>>>>>>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
>>>>>>>> having both at once. - RAH
>
>

[Technical Ecstasy]

Huh? Has absolutely nothing to do with anything I was talking about because
you can't refute my point.

"Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:OPAxY52eFHA.2128@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>I suggest the next time you go to a system builder who will build a
>computer for you with a copy of Linux installed.
>
> You think you are being screwed now? You don't even know the true feeling!
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Richard Urban
>
> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>
>
> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
> news:%23pTFT02eFHA.2844@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> You can't possibly be so obtuse.What are you so hung up on this 299$
>> dollar cd price? Xp is sold to OEMs at nowhere near that price and they
>> in fact press their own cd's. My brother bought a Dell with Win ME on it
>> just before XP came out. When he called to complain about the OS dell
>> offered him a FULL copy of XP for 20$. Do you think they lost money on
>> that ? I will repeat what I said previously; Microsoft can "mandate" the
>> OEMs to provide a full copy of xp if they wanted to but they don't
>> because not providing a full copy of the OS discourages the "casual" OS
>> pirate, they have even admitted this.Also by doing this how much money do
>> you think Microsoft has made by selling the same customer their OS twice
>> because said customer had to buy full copy of XP. because of Tec
>> issues?Do you think that this hasn't been all thought out by Microsoft?
>> Why should I, a paying customer have to pay for something twice? How is
>> Microsoft screwing me? How are they NOT screwing me?
>>
>> "Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:OwepeS2eFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>> For the record, I don't like what the OEM are doing any more than anyone
>>> else does!
>>>
>>> The OEM "may" be screwing you by not supplying a full CD that cost $299,
>>> but it is not Microsoft's fault. If Microsoft didn't step in you would
>>> likely have NOTHING. What do you expect with PC's in the $400-500 range.
>>> Because Microsoft "mandates" that you must have a way to return your
>>> system to a usable state - the OEM's are complying - as cheaply as they
>>> can. Without this mandate do you think you would have "any" way to
>>> repair your system when you screw it up? Likely NOT!
>>>
>>> So how is Microsoft screwing you? In my eyes they are looking out for
>>> you!
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Richard Urban
>>>
>>> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
>>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>>>
>>>
>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>> news:ODrI%23byeFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>> Did you even read my post? What I was implying and thought was pretty
>>>> clear was that the OEM computer manufactures and Microsoft are screwing
>>>> me by not giving me a "full' copy of the OS that I paid for. OEM
>>>> manufactures are saving a few penny's per cd by only providing "restore
>>>> disks" and Microsoft thinks it is cutting down on piracy by *allowing*
>>>> the OEM's to do this.
>>>> As for your tirade in response to my comment,
>>>>
>>>> |You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way for
>>>> |customers to get back to the way the computer was when they opened
>>>> |the box?
>>>>
>>>> No. I'm saying the exact opposite.
>>>>
>>>> |They're NOT going to give you a full CD anymore - not
>>>> |at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People want cheap
>>>>
>>>> Why is that extra nickel per unit going to break Dell? Of course not!
>>>>
>>>> |One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of their
>>>> |computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the computers
>>>> |they
>>>> |sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers
>>>>
>>>> So what. Supply a separate disk with drivers.
>>>>
>>>> |The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company
>>>> |for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power supply at
>>>> |a local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a
>>>> replacement |M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case. You
>>>> can't - different hole
>>>> |locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their exorbitant prices!
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you but it has nothing to do with where I get a *full*
>>>> copy of the OS or not.They can still provide another disk.
>>>>
>>>> |This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old, old
>>>> |discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery options. If
>>>> |Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would probably get
>>>> |"nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.
>>>>
>>>> I don't care if you think it's been beaten like a dead horse, it's
>>>> still wrong and will be wrong in three more years or fifty more years.
>>>> I don't know where your coming from dude but it looks like this bothers
>>>> you a great deal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:%23bz1SfpeFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way for
>>>>> customers to get back to the way the computer was when they opened the
>>>>> box? That's pretty severe! They're NOT going to give you a full CD
>>>>> anymore - not at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for.
>>>>> People want cheap, they get cheap! Pay $4200 for a PC from Alienware
>>>>> and you get a full Windows XP CD. But NOT at $399.95.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of their
>>>>> computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the computers
>>>>> they sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers. The
>>>>> Windows XP CD only has generic drivers. The OEM's try to "lock you in"
>>>>> to their company for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a
>>>>> power supply at a local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try
>>>>> getting a replacement M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case.
>>>>> You can't - different hole locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay
>>>>> their exorbitant prices!
>>>>>
>>>>> Another reason they do it this way is because they get their 20 cents
>>>>> for every box that they deliver that has certain 3rd party crap
>>>>> installed on it, such as AOL, Real Player, backdoor web etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old, old
>>>>> discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery options. If
>>>>> Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would probably get
>>>>> "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard Urban
>>>>>
>>>>> aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
>>>>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:OpY9CIpeFHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do this in the
>>>>>> first place.You should be provided with a full copy of the OS.Or is
>>>>>> it another attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy? (Having the paying
>>>>>> customer pretty much screwed in the end)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> Bill Voight wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sports fans,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP
>>>>>>>> home edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or
>>>>>>>> not, I actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the
>>>>>>>> replacement box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install
>>>>>>>> the backup/restore software. Where can I get it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer manufacturers to
>>>>>>> provide a means of returning the computer to its original,
>>>>>>> ex-factory state. The particular method of recovery, however, is
>>>>>>> left entirely to the discretion of each individual computer
>>>>>>> manufacturer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual obligation to
>>>>>>> Microsoft by providing a means of returning the PC to its ex-factory
>>>>>>> state, whether it's a Recovery CD or a Recovery Partition. They are
>>>>>>> not legally obliged to provide a true installation CD as part of the
>>>>>>> sale. Reputable, customer-service aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway,
>>>>>>> do provide a full OEM installation CD, that does permit custom
>>>>>>> installations and repairs. However, many uncaring OEMs, such as
>>>>>>> eMachines, Compaq, HP, and Sony, in an effort to save pennies and
>>>>>>> reduce their support costs by having to hire support people that
>>>>>>> need only say "Boot from the Recovery CD to return your PC to its
>>>>>>> original condition," provide only a CD bearing a disk image of the
>>>>>>> hard drive as it left the factory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay for."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bruce Chambers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Help us help you:
>>>>>>> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>>>>>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
>>>>>>> having both at once. - RAH
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Richard Urban]

You tell me that Microsoft is screwing you. But you tell Ken Blake that you
blame it all on the OEM's.

Which is it, or can't you make up your shallow mind.

With that I bid you good evening. This has come to an end!

--
Regards,

Richard Urban

aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)

If you knew as much as you thought you know,
You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!


"Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:OPAxY52eFHA.2128@TK2MSFTNGP15.phx.gbl...
>I suggest the next time you go to a system builder who will build a
>computer for you with a copy of Linux installed.
>
> You think you are being screwed now? You don't even know the true feeling!
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Richard Urban
>
> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>
>
> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
> news:%23pTFT02eFHA.2844@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>> You can't possibly be so obtuse.What are you so hung up on this 299$
>> dollar cd price? Xp is sold to OEMs at nowhere near that price and they
>> in fact press their own cd's. My brother bought a Dell with Win ME on it
>> just before XP came out. When he called to complain about the OS dell
>> offered him a FULL copy of XP for 20$. Do you think they lost money on
>> that ? I will repeat what I said previously; Microsoft can "mandate" the
>> OEMs to provide a full copy of xp if they wanted to but they don't
>> because not providing a full copy of the OS discourages the "casual" OS
>> pirate, they have even admitted this.Also by doing this how much money do
>> you think Microsoft has made by selling the same customer their OS twice
>> because said customer had to buy full copy of XP. because of Tec
>> issues?Do you think that this hasn't been all thought out by Microsoft?
>> Why should I, a paying customer have to pay for something twice? How is
>> Microsoft screwing me? How are they NOT screwing me?
>>
>> "Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:OwepeS2eFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
>>> For the record, I don't like what the OEM are doing any more than anyone
>>> else does!
>>>
>>> The OEM "may" be screwing you by not supplying a full CD that cost $299,
>>> but it is not Microsoft's fault. If Microsoft didn't step in you would
>>> likely have NOTHING. What do you expect with PC's in the $400-500 range.
>>> Because Microsoft "mandates" that you must have a way to return your
>>> system to a usable state - the OEM's are complying - as cheaply as they
>>> can. Without this mandate do you think you would have "any" way to
>>> repair your system when you screw it up? Likely NOT!
>>>
>>> So how is Microsoft screwing you? In my eyes they are looking out for
>>> you!
>>>
>>> --
>>> Regards,
>>>
>>> Richard Urban
>>>
>>> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
>>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>>>
>>>
>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>> news:ODrI%23byeFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>> Did you even read my post? What I was implying and thought was pretty
>>>> clear was that the OEM computer manufactures and Microsoft are screwing
>>>> me by not giving me a "full' copy of the OS that I paid for. OEM
>>>> manufactures are saving a few penny's per cd by only providing "restore
>>>> disks" and Microsoft thinks it is cutting down on piracy by *allowing*
>>>> the OEM's to do this.
>>>> As for your tirade in response to my comment,
>>>>
>>>> |You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way for
>>>> |customers to get back to the way the computer was when they opened
>>>> |the box?
>>>>
>>>> No. I'm saying the exact opposite.
>>>>
>>>> |They're NOT going to give you a full CD anymore - not
>>>> |at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People want cheap
>>>>
>>>> Why is that extra nickel per unit going to break Dell? Of course not!
>>>>
>>>> |One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of their
>>>> |computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the computers
>>>> |they
>>>> |sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers
>>>>
>>>> So what. Supply a separate disk with drivers.
>>>>
>>>> |The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company
>>>> |for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power supply at
>>>> |a local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a
>>>> replacement |M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case. You
>>>> can't - different hole
>>>> |locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their exorbitant prices!
>>>>
>>>> I agree with you but it has nothing to do with where I get a *full*
>>>> copy of the OS or not.They can still provide another disk.
>>>>
>>>> |This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old, old
>>>> |discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery options. If
>>>> |Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would probably get
>>>> |"nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.
>>>>
>>>> I don't care if you think it's been beaten like a dead horse, it's
>>>> still wrong and will be wrong in three more years or fifty more years.
>>>> I don't know where your coming from dude but it looks like this bothers
>>>> you a great deal
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:%23bz1SfpeFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a way for
>>>>> customers to get back to the way the computer was when they opened the
>>>>> box? That's pretty severe! They're NOT going to give you a full CD
>>>>> anymore - not at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for.
>>>>> People want cheap, they get cheap! Pay $4200 for a PC from Alienware
>>>>> and you get a full Windows XP CD. But NOT at $399.95.
>>>>>
>>>>> One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of their
>>>>> computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in the computers
>>>>> they sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers. The
>>>>> Windows XP CD only has generic drivers. The OEM's try to "lock you in"
>>>>> to their company for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a
>>>>> power supply at a local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try
>>>>> getting a replacement M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case.
>>>>> You can't - different hole locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay
>>>>> their exorbitant prices!
>>>>>
>>>>> Another reason they do it this way is because they get their 20 cents
>>>>> for every box that they deliver that has certain 3rd party crap
>>>>> installed on it, such as AOL, Real Player, backdoor web etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an old, old
>>>>> discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery options. If
>>>>> Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you would probably get
>>>>> "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony - HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>> Richard Urban
>>>>>
>>>>> aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)
>>>>>
>>>>> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
>>>>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:OpY9CIpeFHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do this in the
>>>>>> first place.You should be provided with a full copy of the OS.Or is
>>>>>> it another attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy? (Having the paying
>>>>>> customer pretty much screwed in the end)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> Bill Voight wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sports fans,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP
>>>>>>>> home edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or
>>>>>>>> not, I actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the
>>>>>>>> replacement box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install
>>>>>>>> the backup/restore software. Where can I get it?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer manufacturers to
>>>>>>> provide a means of returning the computer to its original,
>>>>>>> ex-factory state. The particular method of recovery, however, is
>>>>>>> left entirely to the discretion of each individual computer
>>>>>>> manufacturer.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual obligation to
>>>>>>> Microsoft by providing a means of returning the PC to its ex-factory
>>>>>>> state, whether it's a Recovery CD or a Recovery Partition. They are
>>>>>>> not legally obliged to provide a true installation CD as part of the
>>>>>>> sale. Reputable, customer-service aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway,
>>>>>>> do provide a full OEM installation CD, that does permit custom
>>>>>>> installations and repairs. However, many uncaring OEMs, such as
>>>>>>> eMachines, Compaq, HP, and Sony, in an effort to save pennies and
>>>>>>> reduce their support costs by having to hire support people that
>>>>>>> need only say "Boot from the Recovery CD to return your PC to its
>>>>>>> original condition," provide only a CD bearing a disk image of the
>>>>>>> hard drive as it left the factory.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay for."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> --
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bruce Chambers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Help us help you:
>>>>>>> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>>>>>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on
>>>>>>> having both at once. - RAH
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Ken Blake]

In news:%23PN4vo3eFHA.1328@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
Technical Ecstasy <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> typed:

> And "buyer beware" would be what an apologist for Big Corporate
> America would say


You may think what you like, but anyone who knows me knows that I
am *anything* but "an apologist for Big Corporate America."

Regardless of what you think is right or wrong, not recognizing
that our world is based on *caveat emptor* principles is sticking
your head in the sand.

Stick your head in the sand, and you'll be burnt. Recognize that
"Big Corporate America" is not always straight with you in its
advertising, and you'll do what's necessary to protect yourself.

--
Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
Please reply to the newsgroup



> "Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote in message
> news:usZdh72eFHA.2740@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>> In news:Outhb32eFHA.228@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
>> Technical Ecstasy <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> typed:
>>
>>> I have full copies of XP for all three of my computers, I am
>>> talking
>>> in generalities.I still blame the OEMs because the average
>>> user
>>> doesn't know any better and that's why the OEMs get away with
>>> it.
>>
>>
>> I've heard that "average user doesn't know any better"
>> argument
>> before, and I don't buy it. Someone who doesn't much about
>> computers
>> is exactly the person who most needs to do research before he
>> buys
>> one. Like it our not, our world is based on the principal of
>> *caveat
>> emptor*. Buying something based solely on what the ads for it
>> tell
>> you is just foolhardy. --
>> Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
>> Please reply to the newsgroup
>>
>>
>>> "Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote in
>>> message
>>> news:eFd%23Bu2eFHA.256@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>> In news:OwepeS2eFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
>>>> Richard Urban <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> typed:
>>>>
>>>>> For the record, I don't like what the OEM are doing any
>>>>> more than
>>>>> anyone else does!
>>>>>
>>>>> The OEM "may" be screwing you by not supplying a full CD
>>>>> that cost
>>>>> $299, but it is not Microsoft's fault. If Microsoft didn't
>>>>> step in
>>>>> you would likely have NOTHING. What do you expect with PC's
>>>>> in the
>>>>> $400-500 range. Because Microsoft "mandates" that you must
>>>>> have a
>>>>> way to return your system to a usable state - the OEM's are
>>>>> complying - as cheaply as they can. Without this mandate do
>>>>> you
>>>>> think you would have "any" way to repair your system when
>>>>> you
>>>>> screw it up? Likely NOT! So how is Microsoft screwing you?
>>>>> In my
>>>>> eyes they are looking out
>>>>> for you!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree with all the above, except that I don't even think
>>>> the OEM
>>>> is screwing him. The OEM almost certainly gave him what it
>>>> said it
>>>> would give him. He might not have realized what he was or
>>>> wasn't
>>>> getting, but that's because he failed to do his homework.
>>>>
>>>> Personally, I would never choose to buy a computer that
>>>> didn't come
>>>> with at least an OEM installation CD; if someone chooses to
>>>> buy a
>>>> computer without one, because the price is attractive, and
>>>> then
>>>> complains that there's no CD, he has nobody to blame but
>>>> himself.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
>>>> Please reply to the newsgroup
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:ODrI%23byeFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>>>> Did you even read my post? What I was implying and thought
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> pretty clear was that the OEM computer manufactures and
>>>>>> Microsoft
>>>>>> are screwing me by not giving me a "full' copy of the OS
>>>>>> that I
>>>>>> paid for. OEM manufactures are saving a few penny's per cd
>>>>>> by
>>>>>> only providing "restore disks" and Microsoft thinks it is
>>>>>> cutting down on piracy by *allowing* the OEM's to do this.
>>>>>> As for your tirade in response to my comment,
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to
>>>>>>> offer a
>>>>>>> way for customers to get back to the way the computer was
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> they opened the box?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No. I'm saying the exact opposite.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> They're NOT going to give you a full CD anymore - not
>>>>>>> at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People
>>>>>>> want
>>>>>>> cheap
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Why is that extra nickel per unit going to break Dell? Of
>>>>>> course
>>>>>> not!
>>>>>>> One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because
>>>>>>> most of
>>>>>>> their computers have a great amount of proprietary
>>>>>>> hardware in
>>>>>>> the computers they
>>>>>>> sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So what. Supply a separate disk with drivers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company
>>>>>>> for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a
>>>>>>> power
>>>>>>> supply at |a
>>>>>> local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> replacement
>>>>>>> M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case. You
>>>>>>> can't -
>>>>>>> different hole locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> exorbitant prices!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I agree with you but it has nothing to do with where I get
>>>>>> a
>>>>>> *full* copy of the OS or not.They can still provide
>>>>>> another disk.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's
>>>>>>> an
>>>>>>> old, old discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied
>>>>>>> recovery
>>>>>>> options. If Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such,
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> would probably get "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony -
>>>>>>> HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't care if you think it's been beaten like a dead
>>>>>> horse,
>>>>>> it's still wrong and will be wrong in three more years or
>>>>>> fifty
>>>>>> more years. I don't know where your coming from dude but
>>>>>> it
>>>>>> looks like this bothers you a great deal
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote
>>>>>> in
>>>>>> message news:%23bz1SfpeFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to
>>>>>>> offer a
>>>>>>> way for customers to get back to the way the computer was
>>>>>>> when
>>>>>>> they opened the box? That's pretty severe! They're NOT
>>>>>>> going to
>>>>>>> give you a full CD anymore - not at the PC prices that
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> public is clamoring for. People want cheap, they get
>>>>>>> cheap! Pay
>>>>>>> $4200 for a PC from Alienware and you get a full Windows
>>>>>>> XP CD.
>>>>>>> But NOT at $399.95. One of the reasons that OEM's do it
>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>> way is because most of
>>>>>>> their computers have a great amount of proprietary
>>>>>>> hardware in
>>>>>>> the computers they sell. Therefore they MUST supply the
>>>>>>> necessary drivers. The Windows XP CD only has generic
>>>>>>> drivers.
>>>>>>> The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company for
>>>>>>> hardware
>>>>>>> replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power supply at
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting
>>>>>>> a
>>>>>>> replacement M/B that will physically mount in the Dell
>>>>>>> case.
>>>>>>> You can't - different hole locations. Gotta go back to
>>>>>>> Dell and
>>>>>>> pay their exorbitant prices! Another reason they do it
>>>>>>> this way is because they get their 20
>>>>>>> cents for every box that they deliver that has certain
>>>>>>> 3rd party
>>>>>>> crap installed on it, such as AOL, Real Player, backdoor
>>>>>>> web
>>>>>>> etc. This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now.
>>>>>>> It's an
>>>>>>> old, old discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied
>>>>>>> recovery
>>>>>>> options. If Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such,
>>>>>>> you
>>>>>>> would probably get "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony -
>>>>>>> HP/Compaq (especially) etc!. --
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Richard Urban
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
>>>>>>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought
>>>>>>> you knew!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:OpY9CIpeFHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to
>>>>>>>> do this
>>>>>>>> in the first place.You should be provided with a full
>>>>>>>> copy of
>>>>>>>> the OS.Or is it another attempt by Microsoft to curtail
>>>>>>>> piracy?
>>>>>>>> (Having the paying customer pretty much screwed in the
>>>>>>>> end)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in
>>>>>>>> message
>>>>>>>> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>> Bill Voight wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Sports fans,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit
>>>>>>>>>> w/preinstalled
>>>>>>>>>> XP home edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility
>>>>>>>>>> (believe it or not, I actually have a recent backup of
>>>>>>>>>> my
>>>>>>>>>> Win 2K box). Since the replacement box did not come
>>>>>>>>>> w/an XP
>>>>>>>>>> CD I have no way to install the backup/restore
>>>>>>>>>> software. Where can I get it?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer
>>>>>>>>> manufacturers
>>>>>>>>> to provide a means of returning the computer to its
>>>>>>>>> original,
>>>>>>>>> ex-factory state. The particular method of recovery,
>>>>>>>>> however,
>>>>>>>>> is left entirely to the discretion of each individual
>>>>>>>>> computer
>>>>>>>>> manufacturer. Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual
>>>>>>>>> obligation to Microsoft by providing a means of
>>>>>>>>> returning the
>>>>>>>>> PC to its ex-factory state, whether it's a Recovery CD
>>>>>>>>> or a
>>>>>>>>> Recovery
>>>>>>>>> Partition. They are not legally obliged to provide a
>>>>>>>>> true
>>>>>>>>> installation CD as part of the sale. Reputable,
>>>>>>>>> customer-service aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway, do
>>>>>>>>> provide a full OEM installation CD, that does permit
>>>>>>>>> custom
>>>>>>>>> installations and repairs. However, many uncaring OEMs,
>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>> as eMachines, Compaq, HP, and Sony, in an effort to
>>>>>>>>> save
>>>>>>>>> pennies and reduce their support costs by having to
>>>>>>>>> hire
>>>>>>>>> support people that need only say "Boot from the
>>>>>>>>> Recovery CD
>>>>>>>>> to return your PC to its original condition," provide
>>>>>>>>> only a
>>>>>>>>> CD bearing a disk image of the hard drive as it left
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> factory. Essentially, it boils down to "You get what
>>>>>>>>> you pay
>>>>>>>>> for." --
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bruce Chambers
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Help us help you:
>>>>>>>>> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>>>>>>>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever
>>>>>>>>> count
>>>>>>>>> on having both at once. - RAH

[Technical Ecstasy]

I clearly stated both are to blame, that is what Corporate America refers
to. You are too stupid to understand that analogy. You are the one who is
shallow , an obtuse, thick headed moron who is to shallow to comprehend an
idea too far from your own views.
You are also so unreasonable that you end an argument that you clearly lost
with a stupid question that you don't even want an answer for, so it can't
be disputed, so with no one to argue with, you can always have the last word
and think that you have won. But that is to be expected because that is what
ignorant people do.

[Technical Ecstasy]

So that makes it all ok? I'm not arguing that 'buyer beware" is not a good
motto. I research endlessly. I just think that it's a shame that we all have
to think that way or that we blame people when they don't think that way.We
need to protect stupid people like Richard Urban

"Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote in message
news:%23IvT%2324eFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl...
> In news:%23PN4vo3eFHA.1328@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
> Technical Ecstasy <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> typed:
>
>> And "buyer beware" would be what an apologist for Big Corporate
>> America would say
>
>
> You may think what you like, but anyone who knows me knows that I am
> *anything* but "an apologist for Big Corporate America."
>
> Regardless of what you think is right or wrong, not recognizing that our
> world is based on *caveat emptor* principles is sticking your head in the
> sand.
>
> Stick your head in the sand, and you'll be burnt. Recognize that "Big
> Corporate America" is not always straight with you in its advertising, and
> you'll do what's necessary to protect yourself.
>
> --
> Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
> Please reply to the newsgroup
>
>
>
>> "Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote in message
>> news:usZdh72eFHA.2740@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>> In news:Outhb32eFHA.228@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
>>> Technical Ecstasy <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> typed:
>>>
>>>> I have full copies of XP for all three of my computers, I am talking
>>>> in generalities.I still blame the OEMs because the average user
>>>> doesn't know any better and that's why the OEMs get away with it.
>>>
>>>
>>> I've heard that "average user doesn't know any better" argument
>>> before, and I don't buy it. Someone who doesn't much about computers
>>> is exactly the person who most needs to do research before he buys
>>> one. Like it our not, our world is based on the principal of *caveat
>>> emptor*. Buying something based solely on what the ads for it tell
>>> you is just foolhardy. --
>>> Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
>>> Please reply to the newsgroup
>>>
>>>
>>>> "Ken Blake" <kblake@this.is.an.invalid.domain> wrote in message
>>>> news:eFd%23Bu2eFHA.256@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>> In news:OwepeS2eFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP12.phx.gbl,
>>>>> Richard Urban <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> typed:
>>>>>
>>>>>> For the record, I don't like what the OEM are doing any more than
>>>>>> anyone else does!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The OEM "may" be screwing you by not supplying a full CD that cost
>>>>>> $299, but it is not Microsoft's fault. If Microsoft didn't step in
>>>>>> you would likely have NOTHING. What do you expect with PC's in the
>>>>>> $400-500 range. Because Microsoft "mandates" that you must have a
>>>>>> way to return your system to a usable state - the OEM's are
>>>>>> complying - as cheaply as they can. Without this mandate do you
>>>>>> think you would have "any" way to repair your system when you
>>>>>> screw it up? Likely NOT! So how is Microsoft screwing you? In my
>>>>>> eyes they are looking out
>>>>>> for you!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I agree with all the above, except that I don't even think the OEM
>>>>> is screwing him. The OEM almost certainly gave him what it said it
>>>>> would give him. He might not have realized what he was or wasn't
>>>>> getting, but that's because he failed to do his homework.
>>>>>
>>>>> Personally, I would never choose to buy a computer that didn't come
>>>>> with at least an OEM installation CD; if someone chooses to buy a
>>>>> computer without one, because the price is attractive, and then
>>>>> complains that there's no CD, he has nobody to blame but himself.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
>>>>> Please reply to the newsgroup
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:ODrI%23byeFHA.2420@TK2MSFTNGP10.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>> Did you even read my post? What I was implying and thought was
>>>>>>> pretty clear was that the OEM computer manufactures and Microsoft
>>>>>>> are screwing me by not giving me a "full' copy of the OS that I
>>>>>>> paid for. OEM manufactures are saving a few penny's per cd by
>>>>>>> only providing "restore disks" and Microsoft thinks it is
>>>>>>> cutting down on piracy by *allowing* the OEM's to do this.
>>>>>>> As for your tirade in response to my comment,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a
>>>>>>>> way for customers to get back to the way the computer was when
>>>>>>>> they opened the box?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No. I'm saying the exact opposite.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They're NOT going to give you a full CD anymore - not
>>>>>>>> at the PC prices that the public is clamoring for. People want
>>>>>>>> cheap
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Why is that extra nickel per unit going to break Dell? Of course
>>>>>>> not!
>>>>>>>> One of the reasons that OEM's do it this way is because most of
>>>>>>>> their computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in
>>>>>>>> the computers they
>>>>>>>> sell. Therefore they MUST supply the necessary drivers
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> So what. Supply a separate disk with drivers.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company
>>>>>>>> for hardware replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power
>>>>>>>> supply at |a
>>>>>>> local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a
>>>>>>> replacement
>>>>>>>> M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case. You can't -
>>>>>>>> different hole locations. Gotta go back to Dell and pay their
>>>>>>>> exorbitant prices!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I agree with you but it has nothing to do with where I get a
>>>>>>> *full* copy of the OS or not.They can still provide another disk.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an
>>>>>>>> old, old discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery
>>>>>>>> options. If Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you
>>>>>>>> would probably get "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony -
>>>>>>>> HP/Compaq (especially) etc!.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't care if you think it's been beaten like a dead horse,
>>>>>>> it's still wrong and will be wrong in three more years or fifty
>>>>>>> more years. I don't know where your coming from dude but it
>>>>>>> looks like this bothers you a great deal
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Richard Urban" <richardurbanREMOVETHIS@hotmail.com> wrote in
>>>>>>> message news:%23bz1SfpeFHA.3040@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>> You're saying that Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM's to offer a
>>>>>>>> way for customers to get back to the way the computer was when
>>>>>>>> they opened the box? That's pretty severe! They're NOT going to
>>>>>>>> give you a full CD anymore - not at the PC prices that the
>>>>>>>> public is clamoring for. People want cheap, they get cheap! Pay
>>>>>>>> $4200 for a PC from Alienware and you get a full Windows XP CD.
>>>>>>>> But NOT at $399.95. One of the reasons that OEM's do it this
>>>>>>>> way is because most of
>>>>>>>> their computers have a great amount of proprietary hardware in
>>>>>>>> the computers they sell. Therefore they MUST supply the
>>>>>>>> necessary drivers. The Windows XP CD only has generic drivers.
>>>>>>>> The OEM's try to "lock you in" to their company for hardware
>>>>>>>> replacements and upgrades. Try getting a power supply at a
>>>>>>>> local PC fair for a Dell computer. You can't! Try getting a
>>>>>>>> replacement M/B that will physically mount in the Dell case.
>>>>>>>> You can't - different hole locations. Gotta go back to Dell and
>>>>>>>> pay their exorbitant prices! Another reason they do it this way is
>>>>>>>> because they get their 20
>>>>>>>> cents for every box that they deliver that has certain 3rd party
>>>>>>>> crap installed on it, such as AOL, Real Player, backdoor web
>>>>>>>> etc. This has been beaten to death here for 3+ years now. It's an
>>>>>>>> old, old discussion! You buy OEM - you get OEM supplied recovery
>>>>>>>> options. If Microsoft didn't mandate and stipulate such, you
>>>>>>>> would probably get "nothing" from Dell - Gateway - Sony -
>>>>>>>> HP/Compaq (especially) etc!. --
>>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Richard Urban
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> aka Crusty (-: Old B@stard :-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you knew as much as you thought you know,
>>>>>>>> You would realize that you don't know what you thought you knew!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Technical Ecstasy" <Sabbath@Ozzy.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:OpY9CIpeFHA.1448@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do this
>>>>>>>>> in the first place.You should be provided with a full copy of
>>>>>>>>> the OS.Or is it another attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy?
>>>>>>>>> (Having the paying customer pretty much screwed in the end)
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Bruce Chambers" <bchambers@cable0ne.n3t> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:uMKBYCpeFHA.2288@TK2MSFTNGP14.phx.gbl...
>>>>>>>>>> Bill Voight wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Sports fans,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled
>>>>>>>>>>> XP home edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility
>>>>>>>>>>> (believe it or not, I actually have a recent backup of my
>>>>>>>>>>> Win 2K box). Since the replacement box did not come w/an XP
>>>>>>>>>>> CD I have no way to install the backup/restore software. Where
>>>>>>>>>>> can I get it?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Contact the computer's manufacturer.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Microsoft requires its licensed OEM computer manufacturers
>>>>>>>>>> to provide a means of returning the computer to its original,
>>>>>>>>>> ex-factory state. The particular method of recovery, however,
>>>>>>>>>> is left entirely to the discretion of each individual computer
>>>>>>>>>> manufacturer. Legally, the OEM has met it's contractual
>>>>>>>>>> obligation to Microsoft by providing a means of returning the
>>>>>>>>>> PC to its ex-factory state, whether it's a Recovery CD or a
>>>>>>>>>> Recovery
>>>>>>>>>> Partition. They are not legally obliged to provide a true
>>>>>>>>>> installation CD as part of the sale. Reputable,
>>>>>>>>>> customer-service aware OEMs, like Dell and Gateway, do
>>>>>>>>>> provide a full OEM installation CD, that does permit custom
>>>>>>>>>> installations and repairs. However, many uncaring OEMs, such
>>>>>>>>>> as eMachines, Compaq, HP, and Sony, in an effort to save
>>>>>>>>>> pennies and reduce their support costs by having to hire
>>>>>>>>>> support people that need only say "Boot from the Recovery CD
>>>>>>>>>> to return your PC to its original condition," provide only a
>>>>>>>>>> CD bearing a disk image of the hard drive as it left the
>>>>>>>>>> factory. Essentially, it boils down to "You get what you pay
>>>>>>>>>> for." --
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bruce Chambers
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Help us help you:
>>>>>>>>>> http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
>>>>>>>>>> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count
>>>>>>>>>> on having both at once. - RAH
>
>

[Bruce Chambers]

Technical Ecstasy wrote:
> Microsoft shouldn't allow OEM computer manufactures to do this in the first
> place.


Microsoft cannot dictate how another company conducts its business or
treats its customers, though.


> You should be provided with a full copy of the OS.


I agree, but the decision isn't mine. And reputable OEMs do provide a
full installation CDs. It's only the lower-end manufacturers who scrimp.


> Or is it another
> attempt by Microsoft to curtail piracy? (Having the paying customer pretty
> much screwed in the end)
>

No, this decision (i.e., the means of restoring the OS) is left
entirely up to the computer manufacturer.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once. - RAH

[Bruce Chambers]

Technical Ecstasy wrote:
> Did you even read my post? What I was implying and thought was pretty clear
> was that the OEM computer manufactures



> and Microsoft

...... has nothing to do with it.

> are screwing me by not
> giving me a "full' copy of the OS that I paid for.


But you didn't pay for a full copy of the OS. You paid for that
specific OEM's recovery method. This was your choice, made when you
made the purchase decision.


> OEM manufactures are
> saving a few penny's per cd by only providing "restore disks" and



> Microsoft thinks it is cutting down on piracy by *allowing* the OEM's to do this.


Again, Microsoft has nothing to do with this decision. Because
Microsoft really isn't a true monopoly, it cannot dictate how the OEMs
do business.



>
> So what. Supply a separate disk with drivers.
>

Again, reputable OEMs do this. Bargain-basement companies don't. You
get what you pay for. If you choose to buy from a cheap OEM, you need
to be prepared to get less.




--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:
http://dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having
both at once. - RAH

[Andrew Murray]

Yes XP does have a restore utility . SystemRestore as per Windows ME.
(same idea anyway).
Probably under System Utilities or Accessories on the Start Menu, or under
Control Panel.

"Bill Voight" <bvoight@patriot.net> wrote in message
news:11bu1a7q6k1t07a@corp.supernews.com...
> Sports fans,
>
> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled XP home
> edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or not, I
> actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the replacement
> box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to install the backup/restore
> software. Where can I get it?
>
> Thanks,
>
>
>
> bv

[Ken Blake]

In
news:42c3eb16$0$8647$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au,
Andrew Murray <Noadmurray@SPAMiinet.net.au> typed:

> Yes XP does have a restore utility . SystemRestore as per
> Windows
> ME. (same idea anyway).
> Probably under System Utilities or Accessories on the Start
> Menu, or
> under Control Panel.


No, System Restore will not help him at all. System Restore can
only restore Restore Points that it has made (and those back up
only the system, not any data etc.)

He wants to restore Backups made in Windows 2000--another thing
entirely. WIndows XP comes with a backup/restore facility called
NTBackup. This is installed automatically on XP Professional, but
not on XP Home. If you have the complete XP Home CD, find backup
on the CD, in \ValueAdd\MSFT\NTBACKUP and install it yourself by
doubleclicking the file ntbackup.msi.
If you don't have an XP CD, you can download ntbackup.msi at

http://www.onecomputerguy.com/software/ntbackup.msi

Also see http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=302894


--
Ken Blake - Microsoft MVP Windows: Shell/User
Please reply to the newsgroup



>
> "Bill Voight" <bvoight@patriot.net> wrote in message
> news:11bu1a7q6k1t07a@corp.supernews.com...
>> Sports fans,
>>
>> My Win 2K box died, I replaced it with a unit w/preinstalled
>> XP home
>> edition. The XP has no backup/restore utility (believe it or
>> not, I
>> actually have a recent backup of my Win 2K box). Since the
>> replacement box did not come w/an XP CD I have no way to
>> install the
>> backup/restore software. Where can I get it?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> bv