[hoffman.mm@gmail.com]

When I run chkdsk on my NTFS drive (that I boot from) I usually get a
message saying that there is an error in my volume bitmap. If I run
chkdsk /f to schedule a boot-time check, the first time after I reboot,
many applications will not launch. Instead I get a message box that
says "Unknown Hard Error." After a reboot, the Unknown Hard Error goes
away.

This problem has been reproduced by others and discussed here:

http://mike.steinbaugh.com/journal/2002/08/28/ntfs-file-system-glitch.html

The author of that page said he got a response from Microsoft saying
that it was a problem in Windows, that he should ignore the "error in
volume bitmap" error. Three questions:

1. Is ignoring the error really the best behavior to take?

2. What on earth does "Unknown Hard Error" mean and why is it occurring
under these circumstances?

3. Will Microsoft solve this issue anytime soon?

[Malke]

hoffman.mm@gmail.com wrote:

> When I run chkdsk on my NTFS drive (that I boot from) I usually get a
> message saying that there is an error in my volume bitmap. If I run
> chkdsk /f to schedule a boot-time check, the first time after I
> reboot, many applications will not launch. Instead I get a message box
> that says "Unknown Hard Error." After a reboot, the Unknown Hard Error
> goes away.
>
> This problem has been reproduced by others and discussed here:
>
>
http://mike.steinbaugh.com/journal/2002/08/28/ntfs-file-system-glitch.html
>
> The author of that page said he got a response from Microsoft saying
> that it was a problem in Windows, that he should ignore the "error in
> volume bitmap" error. Three questions:
>
> 1. Is ignoring the error really the best behavior to take?
>
> 2. What on earth does "Unknown Hard Error" mean and why is it
> occurring under these circumstances?
>
> 3. Will Microsoft solve this issue anytime soon?

Since you are getting "Unknown Hard Error" messages, download a hard
drive diagnostic from the drive mftr.'s website. Usually you will
download the file and make a bootable floppy with it. Boot with the
media and do a thorough test. If the drive has physical errors, replace
it.

Malke
--
MS-MVP Windows User/Shell
Elephant Boy Computers
www.elephantboycomputers.com
"Don't Panic"

[Steve N.]

hoffman.mm@gmail.com wrote:
> When I run chkdsk on my NTFS drive (that I boot from) I usually get a
> message saying that there is an error in my volume bitmap. If I run
> chkdsk /f to schedule a boot-time check, the first time after I reboot,
> many applications will not launch. Instead I get a message box that
> says "Unknown Hard Error." After a reboot, the Unknown Hard Error goes
> away.
>
> This problem has been reproduced by others and discussed here:
>
> http://mike.steinbaugh.com/journal/2002/08/28/ntfs-file-system-glitch.html
>
> The author of that page said he got a response from Microsoft saying
> that it was a problem in Windows, that he should ignore the "error in
> volume bitmap" error.

According to the article you referenced the MS rep told him that the
clearing unused security decriptors report could be safely ignored, not
the error in volume bitmap report, and to run chkdsk /f for that error,
just as the chkdsk report advised to do.


Three questions:
>
> 1. Is ignoring the error really the best behavior to take?

Which error? The unused security descriptors, the error in volume
bitmap, or the "unknown" (actually _unrecoverable_) hard error?

>
> 2. What on earth does "Unknown Hard Error" mean and why is it occurring
> under these circumstances?

See below.

>
> 3. Will Microsoft solve this issue anytime soon?

Nothing to solve, chkdsk is working as it should on an NTFS volume.

You are confusing three different issues.

Unused security descriptors - can be safely dismissed as an NTFS
housekeeping operation (although I have seen clearing them correct
certain file/folder permissions problems in some cases).

Error in volume bitmap - run chkdsk /f to correct (or chkdsk /p from
recovery console).

Unrecoverable hard error - this is an error reading sector(s) on the
disk, run chkdsk /r.

I would also do as Malke suggested and test the disk with the daignostic
from the hard drive manufacturer.

Steve

[Michael Hoffman]

Steve N. wrote:
> hoffman.mm@gmail.com wrote:
> > When I run chkdsk on my NTFS drive (that I boot from) I usually get a
> > message saying that there is an error in my volume bitmap. If I run
> > chkdsk /f to schedule a boot-time check, the first time after I reboot,
> > many applications will not launch. Instead I get a message box that
> > says "Unknown Hard Error." After a reboot, the Unknown Hard Error goes
> > away.
> >
> > This problem has been reproduced by others and discussed here:
> >
> > http://mike.steinbaugh.com/journal/2002/08/28/ntfs-file-system-glitch.html
> >
> > The author of that page said he got a response from Microsoft saying
> > that it was a problem in Windows, that he should ignore the "error in
> > volume bitmap" error.
> >
> > 1. Is ignoring the error really the best behavior to take?
>
> Which error? The unused security descriptors, the error in volume
> bitmap, or the "unknown" (actually _unrecoverable_) hard error?

Well, actually the volume bitmap error. Although I'd like to know what
to do what happens when I get "Unknown Hard Error." I don't know what
you mean by "actually _unrecoverable._" The message pretty clearly says
"Unknown Hard Error" and looks like this (replace winlogon.exe with any
other program).

http://www.collinjackson.com/livejournal/20040807-netherlands/unknown-hard-error.jpg

Do you mean Windows *should* be saying "Unrecoverable Hard Error?"

I used to run chkdsk on a weekly basis via a Scheduled Task. Eventually
I started *always* seeing the volume bitmap error. I would then run
chkdsk /f /r which would fix security descriptors.

> > 3. Will Microsoft solve this issue anytime soon?
>
> Nothing to solve, chkdsk is working as it should on an NTFS volume.

Running chkdsk /f does not fix the problem and it actually causes other
errors which are inadequately explained by Windows.

> Error in volume bitmap - run chkdsk /f to correct (or chkdsk /p from
> recovery console).

Running chkdsk /f does not fix the error. It is reported again if I run
chkdsk after rebooting. I am also reluctant to do it now since it
causes the unknown hard error.

> Unrecoverable hard error - this is an error reading sector(s) on the
> disk, run chkdsk /r.

Why does it go away after I reboot when trying to launch a particular
application? The sector is somehow fixed automatically?

> I would also do as Malke suggested and test the disk with the daignostic
> from the hard drive manufacturer.

Thanks for that suggestion. It is an IBM ThinkPad G40 with a Hitachi
DK23EA-40B HD. I'll try running PC-Doctor (IBM's supplied diagnostics)
out of Windows and see what I find.

Thanks again for your help.
--
Michael Hoffman

[Steve N.]

Michael Hoffman wrote:

> Steve N. wrote:
>
>>hoffman.mm@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>>When I run chkdsk on my NTFS drive (that I boot from) I usually get a
>>>message saying that there is an error in my volume bitmap. If I run
>>>chkdsk /f to schedule a boot-time check, the first time after I reboot,
>>>many applications will not launch. Instead I get a message box that
>>>says "Unknown Hard Error." After a reboot, the Unknown Hard Error goes
>>>away.
>>>
>>>This problem has been reproduced by others and discussed here:
>>>
>>>http://mike.steinbaugh.com/journal/2002/08/28/ntfs-file-system-glitch.html
>>>
>>>The author of that page said he got a response from Microsoft saying
>>>that it was a problem in Windows, that he should ignore the "error in
>>>volume bitmap" error.
>>>
>>>1. Is ignoring the error really the best behavior to take?
>>
>>Which error? The unused security descriptors, the error in volume
>>bitmap, or the "unknown" (actually _unrecoverable_) hard error?
>
>
> Well, actually the volume bitmap error. Although I'd like to know what
> to do what happens when I get "Unknown Hard Error." I don't know what
> you mean by "actually _unrecoverable._" The message pretty clearly says
> "Unknown Hard Error" and looks like this (replace winlogon.exe with any
> other program).
>
> http://www.collinjackson.com/livejournal/20040807-netherlands/unknown-hard-error.jpg

I'm apologize, that is a completely different issue, I thought you were
referring to chkdsk reporting that. Thanks for clarifying. I haven't
seen that error in a while and can find no details on that one from MS,
but as I recall it can be caused by file corruption, by a RAM problem or
disk driver in addition to a hard disk problem. I'd look in Event
viewer, System for errors.

Test your RAM using Memtest86:

www.memtest86.com

And with the MS memory test:

http://oca.microsoft.com/en/windiag.asp

Use both and do several complete passes, I've seen RAM pass one of them
and fail the other.

Use the Drive Fitness Test from Hitachi:

http://www.hitachigst.com/hdd/support/download.htm

Re-install/update the motherboard device drivers.

>
> Do you mean Windows *should* be saying "Unrecoverable Hard Error?"
>
> I used to run chkdsk on a weekly basis via a Scheduled Task. Eventually
> I started *always* seeing the volume bitmap error. I would then run
> chkdsk /f /r which would fix security descriptors.
>
>
>>>3. Will Microsoft solve this issue anytime soon?
>>
>>Nothing to solve, chkdsk is working as it should on an NTFS volume.
>
>
> Running chkdsk /f does not fix the problem and it actually causes other
> errors which are inadequately explained by Windows.
>
>
>>Error in volume bitmap - run chkdsk /f to correct (or chkdsk /p from
>>recovery console).
>
>
> Running chkdsk /f does not fix the error. It is reported again if I run
> chkdsk after rebooting. I am also reluctant to do it now since it
> causes the unknown hard error.
>
>
>>Unrecoverable hard error - this is an error reading sector(s) on the
>>disk, run chkdsk /r.
>
>
> Why does it go away after I reboot when trying to launch a particular
> application? The sector is somehow fixed automatically?
>
>
>>I would also do as Malke suggested and test the disk with the daignostic
>>from the hard drive manufacturer.
>
>
> Thanks for that suggestion. It is an IBM ThinkPad G40 with a Hitachi
> DK23EA-40B HD. I'll try running PC-Doctor (IBM's supplied diagnostics)
> out of Windows and see what I find.
>
> Thanks again for your help.

I believe that is a Travelstar drive and I've seen several go bad. Not
as many as the Deskstar series but quite a few. They've been nicknamed
"Troublestar" and "Deathstar". That would be my first suspicion of your
trouble.

Steve

[Michael Hoffman]

No need to apologize Steve, but thanks for all of your help. No obvious
anomalies in the System log. I'll try the various diagnostics you have
suggested. Special thanks for pointing out the Hitachi diagnostics
software.

I am already running SMART monitoring software. Most importantly I have
started making regular backups (always a good idea, I know) so a total
crash will be extremely annoying rather than a total disaster.

[Steve N.]

Michael Hoffman wrote:

> No need to apologize Steve, but thanks for all of your help. No obvious
> anomalies in the System log. I'll try the various diagnostics you have
> suggested. Special thanks for pointing out the Hitachi diagnostics
> software.

You are most welcome, Michael.

>
> I am already running SMART monitoring software. Most importantly I have
> started making regular backups (always a good idea, I know) so a total
> crash will be extremely annoying rather than a total disaster.
>

Very good. Please post back with your results. We all can learn from
your experience.

Thank you,
Steve

[Michael Hoffman]

Steve N. wrote:

> Please post back with your results. We all can learn from
> your experience.

Results:

1) Hitachi diagnostics: fixed bad sectors
2) Chkdsk: fixed one or more errors
3) Microsoft RAM test (extended): 1.5 passes, no errors
4) MemTest86 3.0: 15 passes, no errors

Hopefully it was just some bad sectors which are marked now.
--
Michael Hoffman

[Rick \Nutcase\ Rogers]

Hi,

Bad sectors have a way of multiplying, be vigilant and backup often.

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
Associate Expert - WindowsXP Expert Zone
www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/expertzone
Windows help - www.rickrogers.org

"Michael Hoffman" <hoffman.mm@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1119742205.919273.235220@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Steve N. wrote:
>
>> Please post back with your results. We all can learn from
>> your experience.
>
> Results:
>
> 1) Hitachi diagnostics: fixed bad sectors
> 2) Chkdsk: fixed one or more errors
> 3) Microsoft RAM test (extended): 1.5 passes, no errors
> 4) MemTest86 3.0: 15 passes, no errors
>
> Hopefully it was just some bad sectors which are marked now.
> --
> Michael Hoffman
>