USB 2.0 - All devices don't initiate



Blackdog
07-09-2005, 11:22 PM
I have an Asus P4S800 MB and several USB 2.0 devices (like the Alcatel DSL
modem, a cordless logitech mouse and a logitech webcam). My MB supports USB
2.0 (in the device manager I have the enhancend host controlers). The OS is
Windows XP Pro Portuguese edition with SP2.

The problem is that all the usb devices don't work when I restart the
windows. in the device manager it says that the device can't iniciate
(code 10). If I unplug the device and plug it again in another port (for
example if I exchange the usb ports of the modem and the webcam) it works
fine, until the next time I turn off the pc and restart the OS. So every
time I
turn the computer on I have to unplug all the USB devices, otherwise the
windows
will take 15 minutes to start and none of the devices will iniciate.

Please, can someone please help me with this matter? Thanks in advance =)

07-09-2005, 11:22 PM
I've had problems with my ASUS mobo and USB devices, too.

Is your BIOS up to date? May need a flash, which you download from the ASUS
website.


"Blackdog" <Blackdog@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:5DBCCDBB-70BB-4EC4-A28A-21986ED9A3BD@microsoft.com...
> I have an Asus P4S800 MB and several USB 2.0 devices (like the Alcatel DSL
> modem, a cordless logitech mouse and a logitech webcam). My MB supports
USB
> 2.0 (in the device manager I have the enhancend host controlers). The OS
is
> Windows XP Pro Portuguese edition with SP2.
>
> The problem is that all the usb devices don't work when I restart the
> windows. in the device manager it says that the device can't iniciate
> (code 10). If I unplug the device and plug it again in another port (for
> example if I exchange the usb ports of the modem and the webcam) it works
> fine, until the next time I turn off the pc and restart the OS. So every
> time I
> turn the computer on I have to unplug all the USB devices, otherwise the
> windows
> will take 15 minutes to start and none of the devices will iniciate.
>
> Please, can someone please help me with this matter? Thanks in advance =)
>

Blackdog
07-09-2005, 11:22 PM
Yes it is. I have the latest version of the BIOS (the v1009).

If I disable the USB 2.0 function in the BIOS the PC works fine and all the
devices initiate. The problem is that they work at low speed and I get the
warnings for that.

"phideaux" wrote:

> I've had problems with my ASUS mobo and USB devices, too.
>
> Is your BIOS up to date? May need a flash, which you download from the ASUS
> website.
>
>
> "Blackdog" <Blackdog@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:5DBCCDBB-70BB-4EC4-A28A-21986ED9A3BD@microsoft.com...
> > I have an Asus P4S800 MB and several USB 2.0 devices (like the Alcatel DSL
> > modem, a cordless logitech mouse and a logitech webcam). My MB supports
> USB
> > 2.0 (in the device manager I have the enhancend host controlers). The OS
> is
> > Windows XP Pro Portuguese edition with SP2.
> >
> > The problem is that all the usb devices don't work when I restart the
> > windows. in the device manager it says that the device can't iniciate
> > (code 10). If I unplug the device and plug it again in another port (for
> > example if I exchange the usb ports of the modem and the webcam) it works
> > fine, until the next time I turn off the pc and restart the OS. So every
> > time I
> > turn the computer on I have to unplug all the USB devices, otherwise the
> > windows
> > will take 15 minutes to start and none of the devices will iniciate.
> >
> > Please, can someone please help me with this matter? Thanks in advance =)
> >
>
>
>

07-09-2005, 11:22 PM
The only other thing I can think of is to double-check the mobo connections
to the USB headers, make sure they're not reversed. IF it's still under
warranty, I've found that ASUS tech support is pretty good.

"Blackdog" <Blackdog@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:C7DE0E25-1D3B-458F-B856-CFFEDD7F5534@microsoft.com...
> Yes it is. I have the latest version of the BIOS (the v1009).
>
> If I disable the USB 2.0 function in the BIOS the PC works fine and all
the
> devices initiate. The problem is that they work at low speed and I get the
> warnings for that.
>
> "phideaux" wrote:
>
> > I've had problems with my ASUS mobo and USB devices, too.
> >
> > Is your BIOS up to date? May need a flash, which you download from the
ASUS
> > website.
> >
> >
> > "Blackdog" <Blackdog@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> > news:5DBCCDBB-70BB-4EC4-A28A-21986ED9A3BD@microsoft.com...
> > > I have an Asus P4S800 MB and several USB 2.0 devices (like the Alcatel
DSL
> > > modem, a cordless logitech mouse and a logitech webcam). My MB
supports
> > USB
> > > 2.0 (in the device manager I have the enhancend host controlers). The
OS
> > is
> > > Windows XP Pro Portuguese edition with SP2.
> > >
> > > The problem is that all the usb devices don't work when I restart the
> > > windows. in the device manager it says that the device can't iniciate
> > > (code 10). If I unplug the device and plug it again in another port
(for
> > > example if I exchange the usb ports of the modem and the webcam) it
works
> > > fine, until the next time I turn off the pc and restart the OS. So
every
> > > time I
> > > turn the computer on I have to unplug all the USB devices, otherwise
the
> > > windows
> > > will take 15 minutes to start and none of the devices will iniciate.
> > >
> > > Please, can someone please help me with this matter? Thanks in advance
=)
> > >
> >
> >
> >

Steve N.
07-09-2005, 11:22 PM
Blackdog wrote:

> Yes it is. I have the latest version of the BIOS (the v1009).
>
> If I disable the USB 2.0 function in the BIOS the PC works fine and all the
> devices initiate. The problem is that they work at low speed and I get the
> warnings for that.

Have you tried re-installing the chipset drivers for the motherboard?

Steve

>
> "phideaux" wrote:
>
>
>>I've had problems with my ASUS mobo and USB devices, too.
>>
>>Is your BIOS up to date? May need a flash, which you download from the ASUS
>>website.
>>
>>
>>"Blackdog" <Blackdog@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>>news:5DBCCDBB-70BB-4EC4-A28A-21986ED9A3BD@microsoft.com...
>>
>>>I have an Asus P4S800 MB and several USB 2.0 devices (like the Alcatel DSL
>>>modem, a cordless logitech mouse and a logitech webcam). My MB supports
>>
>>USB
>>
>>>2.0 (in the device manager I have the enhancend host controlers). The OS
>>
>>is
>>
>>>Windows XP Pro Portuguese edition with SP2.
>>>
>>>The problem is that all the usb devices don't work when I restart the
>>>windows. in the device manager it says that the device can't iniciate
>>>(code 10). If I unplug the device and plug it again in another port (for
>>>example if I exchange the usb ports of the modem and the webcam) it works
>>>fine, until the next time I turn off the pc and restart the OS. So every
>>>time I
>>>turn the computer on I have to unplug all the USB devices, otherwise the
>>>windows
>>>will take 15 minutes to start and none of the devices will iniciate.
>>>
>>>Please, can someone please help me with this matter? Thanks in advance =)
>>>
>>
>>
>>

Steve N.
07-09-2005, 11:22 PM
phideaux wrote:

> The only other thing I can think of is to double-check the mobo connections
> to the USB headers, make sure they're not reversed. IF it's still under
> warranty, I've found that ASUS tech support is pretty good.

If they were reversed then the USB ports wouldn't work at all.

Steve

>
> "Blackdog" <Blackdog@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
> news:C7DE0E25-1D3B-458F-B856-CFFEDD7F5534@microsoft.com...
>
>>Yes it is. I have the latest version of the BIOS (the v1009).
>>
>>If I disable the USB 2.0 function in the BIOS the PC works fine and all
>
> the
>
>>devices initiate. The problem is that they work at low speed and I get the
>>warnings for that.
>>
>>"phideaux" wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I've had problems with my ASUS mobo and USB devices, too.
>>>
>>>Is your BIOS up to date? May need a flash, which you download from the
>
> ASUS
>
>>>website.
>>>
>>>
>>>"Blackdog" <Blackdog@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
>>>news:5DBCCDBB-70BB-4EC4-A28A-21986ED9A3BD@microsoft.com...
>>>
>>>>I have an Asus P4S800 MB and several USB 2.0 devices (like the Alcatel
>
> DSL
>
>>>>modem, a cordless logitech mouse and a logitech webcam). My MB
>
> supports
>
>>>USB
>>>
>>>>2.0 (in the device manager I have the enhancend host controlers). The
>
> OS
>
>>>is
>>>
>>>>Windows XP Pro Portuguese edition with SP2.
>>>>
>>>>The problem is that all the usb devices don't work when I restart the
>>>>windows. in the device manager it says that the device can't iniciate
>>>>(code 10). If I unplug the device and plug it again in another port
>
> (for
>
>>>>example if I exchange the usb ports of the modem and the webcam) it
>
> works
>
>>>>fine, until the next time I turn off the pc and restart the OS. So
>
> every
>
>>>>time I
>>>>turn the computer on I have to unplug all the USB devices, otherwise
>
> the
>
>>>>windows
>>>>will take 15 minutes to start and none of the devices will iniciate.
>>>>
>>>>Please, can someone please help me with this matter? Thanks in advance
>
> =)
>
>>>
>>>
>
>

Yves Leclerc
07-09-2005, 11:22 PM
Are the devices directly connected to the motherboard based USB ports? It
cound be that the ports are not providing enough power to the USB devices.
Have your considered a self-powered USB 2.0 hub???


"Blackdog" <Blackdog@discussions.microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:5DBCCDBB-70BB-4EC4-A28A-21986ED9A3BD@microsoft.com...
>I have an Asus P4S800 MB and several USB 2.0 devices (like the Alcatel DSL
> modem, a cordless logitech mouse and a logitech webcam). My MB supports
> USB
> 2.0 (in the device manager I have the enhancend host controlers). The OS
> is
> Windows XP Pro Portuguese edition with SP2.
>
> The problem is that all the usb devices don't work when I restart the
> windows. in the device manager it says that the device can't iniciate
> (code 10). If I unplug the device and plug it again in another port (for
> example if I exchange the usb ports of the modem and the webcam) it works
> fine, until the next time I turn off the pc and restart the OS. So every
> time I
> turn the computer on I have to unplug all the USB devices, otherwise the
> windows
> will take 15 minutes to start and none of the devices will iniciate.
>
> Please, can someone please help me with this matter? Thanks in advance =)
>

Bill Drake
07-09-2005, 11:26 PM
Blackdog wrote:
> I have an Asus P4S800 MB and several USB 2.0 devices (like the
> Alcatel DSL modem, a cordless logitech mouse and a logitech
> webcam).
>
> My MB supports USB 2.0 (in the device manager I have the
> enhanced host controlers). The OS is Windows XP Pro Portuguese
> edition with SP2.
>
> The problem is that all the usb devices don't work when I restart the
> windows. in the device manager it says that the device can't iniciate
> (code 10). If I unplug the device and plug it again in another port
> (for example if I exchange the usb ports of the modem and the
> webcam) it works fine, until the next time I turn off the pc and restart
> the OS. So every time I turn the computer on I have to unplug all the
> USB devices, otherwise the windows will take 15 minutes to start and
> none of the devices will initiate.
>
> Please, can someone please help me with this matter? Thanks in
> advance =)

There are some known problems with USB2 instantiation that occur
when USB2 drivers are updated by Windows Updates. The problems
manifest as unstable operation where USB2 port hardware "looks" like
USB1 port hardware at startup -- and thus the devices don't properly
instantiate in the desired operational mode.


Things to check:

1. If your original install was WXP-SP1 and you upgraded to WXP-SP2
through Windows Update, then you almost certainly have a problem
with your USB2 ports as a result.

While the USB2 driver files were properly updated by the Service Pack,
the existing Registry Entries and driver-linkages were NOT properly
reinstantiated as part of the update. These items must be updated
manually for proper USB2 operation.

2. For proper operation of USB2 devices using the latest drivers, it is
*vitally* important that the machine hardware and software gets
updated in the proper order.

3. The first step is to ensure you are using the latest motherboard BIOS.
The Plug-'n-Play managers in many of the older BIOS versions do
*not* properly instantiate the USB2 ports in real mode before WXP
starts up.

As a result, it is impossible for the PnP manager to correctly
enumerate the capabilities of the attached devices and report to the
BIOS as to the capabilities of those devices.

Consequently, the BIOS is "blind" to the boot-parameters of external
Hard Disks, mice, keyboards and so on -- and therefore these
devices simply don't function properly in DOS mode.

The only proper fix for this is a BIOS update -- and this is the
*absolute foundation requirement* for trouble free mixed USB1/2
device operation with multiple devices attached to multiple USB ports.


4. Once the BIOS is properly updated, the motherboard CMOS
parameters must be cleared to Factory Defaults and then properly
reset to the user's desired settings.

It is ABSOLUTELY MANDATORY that the CMOS parameters
get cleared and then properly reset when a BIOS update is performed.

Unstable and erratic motherboard operation (including Hard Disks and
USB devices that "magically disappear") is a common consequence of
performing a BIOS update without properly clearing the CMOS once
the BIOS update is complete.

5. With the BIOS update performed and the CMOS parameters properly
updated with new settings that match the new BIOS code, the next
step is to update Windows to take advantage of what the BIOS is
now capable of offering.

6. To update Windows, go into Device Manager and open the "System
Devices" section. Right-Click on the first item in that section and
select the "Update Driver" option. The "Hardware Update Wizard"
Dialog Box will open.

7. Select the "No, not at this time" radio-button option of the three
presented. Click "Next" as prompted.

Note: You already have all the required files on your system as
a result of installing WXP-SP2. All that is required is to
force WXP to rewrite its Registry to be congruent with the
changes made available as a result of the SP2 upgrade.

8. WXP will then check to see if there are any *pending* changes
for that hardware item that are possible as a result of the updates
made by the SP2 upgrade. If so, WXP will then automatically
install the update and tell you it updated the Registry and Driver
parameters for that item. If not, WXP will tell you the existing
Registry and Driver info is the best available at that time.

9. Repeat Items 6 through 8 for *each and every item* in the "System
Devices" section.

Note: The above *must be done as a prerequisite* to updates to
the USB section. There is no point in updating the USB
section until after the "System Devices" section is healthy.

10. You will normally find that as a result of the BIOS update, the item
noted as the "Firmware Hub Device" (or words similar) will be
rediscovered by WXP as in need of update. This driver is the
*interface* between WXP and the Plug-'n-Play manager in the
motherboard BIOS. Without this working properly, it is not possible
for your USB drivers to tell the motherboard BIOS how the stuff
plugged into your USB ports wants to connect to your system.

It is absolutely required that this "Firmware Hub Device" item be
healthy for hardware-discovery-communications between the USB
devices, the USB ports and the motherboard BIOS to work properly.

You can have a sucessful BIOS update and a successful USB driver
update, but without the "System Devices" updates you will *still* have
a non-optimized USB2 subsystem and the resultant compatibility
headaches.

11. If your USB2 ports have been added to the machine as an add-on
card in a PCI slot, you will commonly also find the "PCI Bridge" and
the "PCI Bus" items will also update in similar fashion to the
"Firmware
Hub" entry mentioned in Item 10.

Continue checking each and every existing item in the "System Devices"
section of the Hardware Tree. Ensure that all these items are up to
date before proceeding to the next section.

12. Some of the updates performed in Items 6 through 11 above may
prompt Windows to ask you to reboot your machine. Do so if prompted
and continue the process until you have all the items in the "System
Devices " section of the Hardware Tree updated. Even if Windows
does
not prompt you, reboot once you have completed updating all the
entries
in the "System Devices" section of the Hardware Tree.

13. With the "System Devices" section of the Hardware Tree updated, now
perform the same updated procedure detailed in Items 6 through 9
above -- but do this with the items in the "Universal Serial Bus
controllers"
section instead.

You will absolutely find the existing driver and Registry info for
the
"USB 2.0 enhanced host controller" will require updating. You will
also find that once you do so, everything *connected* as a USB
device is going to promptly scream at you about wanting to be
re-enumerated -- because now that you've updated the drivers
you'll finally *get* bidirectional communication between Windows
and the BIOS!

To avoid mayhem, you may wish to unplug as many USB peripherals
as you can until after the drivers are updated. One of the most
common problems in this regard occurs when using a USB mouse.
Once the USB2 driver is updated, your mouse will quit and you won't
be able to click on the necessary button to continue the update
process. If you have a standard keyboard, you can just hit the
"Enter" key to finish the process. If you have a USB keyboard, that
won't work any better than the USB mouse, for the same reason.

It is *highly recommended* that you use a standard PS2 keyboard
and mouse to perform these updates. Once the updates are in
place, you can happily go back to using a USB2 keyboard and mouse.

14. Perform the same update procedure for all the items in the "Universal
Serial Bus controllers" section as detailed in Item 12. You will
find
that all the USB1 device drivers will *also* update -- because the
driver
file has changed and all its associated Registry Entries must *also*
change to work with the new driver file.

Now you know why all your USB1 devices went to grief -- even
though you only supposedly updated the USB2 driver. <shrug>

15. Once you have completely updated all the entries in the "Universal
Serial Bus controllers" section of the Hardware Tree, reboot again
to normalize the Registry with all the new changes in place.

16. You may now reconnect all your USB devices. (One at a time!)
Allow WXP to redetect and *properly* enumerate each device. If
prompted, allow the driver-install process for each device to proceed
and re-establish connection between WXP and that USB device with
full bidirectional-status-communication in place. Reboot if prompted
by the driver-install process. Reboot one last time after all the USB
devices are connected.

17. As a final step, it is necessary to go into the Hardware Tree and
remove any "Ghost" entries remaining as a consequence of these
driver updates.

To do so, open a DOSbox and type the following at the DOS prompt:

SET DEVMGR_SHOW_NONPRESENT DEVICES=1

Hit <enter> once the line is complete. LEAVE THE DOSBOX OPEN.
You can minimize the DOSbox to the taskbar, but the DOSbox must
remain working for the duration of the rest of this procedure.

18. With the DOSbox open and functional as described in Item 17, open
Device Manager again. Click the "View" Menubar item and click on
the "Show Hidden Devices" dropdown menu item. A checkbox will
appear in that menu item and the Device Manager will be redrawn
with all the "Ghost" items shown.

You will then be confronted with a whole bunch of "Ghost" items
in your Hardware Tree. Ghost items are configuration data for
hardware that Windows thinks is present but not connected. Each
"Ghost" item in the hardware tree has a *pale* icon instead of the
normal *bright* icon that shows for a piece of hardware that WXP
understands is working correctly for the machine.

Remove "Ghost" items for each of your USB devices by right-clicking
the ghost item and clicking "Uninstall".

Note: If you have plugged USB devices into many different USB
ports, you will find great bunches of duplicate "Ghost"
entries
in your Hardware Tree. Each of these "Ghost" entries is
present for when that particular USB device was plugged into
a different USB port.

Windows *tries* to accomodate all the hardware in your
machine (both "real" and "ghost") when assigning hardware
resources to your devices. As should be painfully obvious,
if you've played "mix-'n-match" with your USB devices, all
those duplicate entries play merry hob with both Windows
Itself *and* with the BIOS Plug-'n-Play manager now that
you've got the bidirectional-status-communication working
properly.

19. There are "Ghost" items in the Registry that are *supposed* to be
there. Do NOT indiscriminately remove items just because they
are "Ghost" entries. Only remove items that you can clearly see
are duplicates of something that is already present and working
correctly in another instance.

However, you may find "orphan" items as well. These belong to
old hardware you've removed from the system -- or they are
"mortal remains" of obsolete driver installations. Yes, these need
to be removed. No, I can't tell you a simple and easy way to
determine whether an item is an "orphan" or not.

20. If you do not know what to do with an item, note its name and
post another message in the newsgroup, asking about that item
and whether it should be removed. It is better in this regard to
err on the side of caution.


Once you have fully updated your Hardware (the motherboard BIOS)
and your Hardware Tree (the WXP interface to your Hardware) -- and
cleaned up any remaining "mess" from previous thrashing about with
drivers -- then all your USB devices should magically start to work
stably and reliably. USB and USB2 stuff works just fine, as long as
the drivers and the hardware interface are healthy and communicating
properly.


Best I can do for now. <tm>


Bill

Steve N.
07-09-2005, 11:27 PM
Bill Drake wrote:

> Blackdog wrote:
>
>>I have an Asus P4S800 MB and several USB 2.0 devices (like the
>>Alcatel DSL modem, a cordless logitech mouse and a logitech
>>webcam).
>>
>>My MB supports USB 2.0 (in the device manager I have the
>>enhanced host controlers). The OS is Windows XP Pro Portuguese
>>edition with SP2.
>>
>>The problem is that all the usb devices don't work when I restart the
>>windows. in the device manager it says that the device can't iniciate
>>(code 10). If I unplug the device and plug it again in another port
>>(for example if I exchange the usb ports of the modem and the
>>webcam) it works fine, until the next time I turn off the pc and restart
>>the OS. So every time I turn the computer on I have to unplug all the
>>USB devices, otherwise the windows will take 15 minutes to start and
>>none of the devices will initiate.
>>
>>Please, can someone please help me with this matter? Thanks in
>>advance =)
>
>
> There are some known problems with USB2 instantiation that occur
> when USB2 drivers are updated by Windows Updates. The problems
> manifest as unstable operation where USB2 port hardware "looks" like
> USB1 port hardware at startup -- and thus the devices don't properly
> instantiate in the desired operational mode.
>
>

<snip>

>
> 3. The first step is to ensure you are using the latest motherboard BIOS.
> The Plug-'n-Play managers in many of the older BIOS versions do
> *not* properly instantiate the USB2 ports in real mode before WXP
> starts up.
>
> As a result, it is impossible for the PnP manager to correctly
> enumerate the capabilities of the attached devices and report to the
> BIOS as to the capabilities of those devices.
>
> Consequently, the BIOS is "blind" to the boot-parameters of external
> Hard Disks, mice, keyboards and so on -- and therefore these
> devices simply don't function properly in DOS mode.
>
> The only proper fix for this is a BIOS update -- and this is the
> *absolute foundation requirement* for trouble free mixed USB1/2
> device operation with multiple devices attached to multiple USB ports.
>

<snip>

Bill,

I would not recommend updating the BIOS unless it can be verified that
the update specifically fixes the problem. I suggest you ammend your
otherwise very good instructions to state that one should check their
BIOS version, compare it to available BIOS updates and investigate
whether or not the an update will correct a USB 2.0 issue before they
consider flashing the BIOS. Needlessly updating a system BIOS is not
really worth the risk, IMO.

Steve

Bill Drake
07-09-2005, 11:28 PM
Steve N. wrote:
> Bill Drake wrote:
>
>> Blackdog wrote:
>>
>>> I have an Asus P4S800 MB and several USB 2.0 devices (like the
>>> Alcatel DSL modem, a cordless logitech mouse and a logitech
>>> webcam).
>>>
>>> My MB supports USB 2.0 (in the device manager I have the
>>> enhanced host controllers). The OS is Windows XP Pro Portuguese
>>> edition with SP2.
>>>
>>> The problem is that all the usb devices don't work when I restart
>>> the windows. in the device manager it says that the device can't
>>> initiate (code 10). If I unplug the device and plug it again in
>>> another port (for example if I exchange the usb ports of the modem
>>> and the webcam) it works fine, until the next time I turn off the pc and
>>> restart the OS. So every time I turn the computer on I have to
>>> unplug all the USB devices, otherwise the windows will take 15
>>> minutes to start and none of the devices will initiate.
>>>
>>> Please, can someone please help me with this matter? Thanks in
>>> advance =)
>>
>>
>> There are some known problems with USB2 instantiation that occur
>> when USB2 drivers are updated by Windows Updates. The problems
>> manifest as unstable operation where USB2 port hardware "looks" like
>> USB1 port hardware at startup -- and thus the devices don't properly
>> instantiate in the desired operational mode.
>>
>>
>
> <snip>
>
>>
>> 3. The first step is to ensure you are using the latest motherboard
>> BIOS. The Plug-'n-Play managers in many of the older BIOS
>> versions do *not* properly instantiate the USB2 ports in real
>> mode before WXP starts up.
>>
>> As a result, it is impossible for the PnP manager to correctly
>> enumerate the capabilities of the attached devices and report to
>> the BIOS as to the capabilities of those devices.
>>
>> Consequently, the BIOS is "blind" to the boot-parameters of
>> external Hard Disks, mice, keyboards and so on -- and therefore
>> these devices simply don't function properly in DOS mode.
>>
>> The only proper fix for this is a BIOS update -- and this is the
>> *absolute foundation requirement* for trouble free mixed USB1/2
>> device operation with multiple devices attached to multiple USB
>> ports.
>
> <snip>
>
> Bill,
>
> I would not recommend updating the BIOS unless it can be verified that
> the update specifically fixes the problem. I suggest you amend your
> otherwise very good instructions to state that one should check their
> BIOS version, compare it to available BIOS updates and investigate
> whether or not the an update will correct a USB 2.0 issue before they
> consider flashing the BIOS. Needlessly updating a system BIOS is not
> really worth the risk, IMO.
>
> Steve

Hi, Steve. I disagree with you on this. The vast majority of
*intractable*
Windows problems are finally solved by motherboard BIOS updates.


Comment:

If BIOS problems were solvable by work-arounds -- there would *be*
no BIOS updates. Ergo, the reason BIOS updates exist is because
they fix things that *no other procedure* can fix.

There is no logical reason for people to be afraid of BIOS updates.

And there is no logical reason for the technically-proficient people in
this newsgroup to perpetuate old-wives-tales and various prejudices
that predispose users to *remain* stuck in their problems.


Conversely, It is very important to reinforce the idea that the user
*must* pay attention to performing the BIOS update process as
per the instructions of the motherboard manufacturer.

And I reiterate the following:

"In order to competently perform a BIOS update, you need to be able
to read, comprehend and follow instructions. If you do not qualify, do
NOT attempt this procedure. Alternatively, take the machine to a
competent computer technician to perform this upgrade."


Observation:

There are way too many people who approach problem-solving in a
slovenly and haphazard manner.

However, it is *not* the responsibility of technically-competent people
to mollycoddle the incompetent and thereby hamstring those who are
actually capable.

Give people the tools to solve their problem. If they screw things up
because they can't follow instructions -- then they screw things up.

It's not your or my fault they're stupid. They need to *learn* they're
stupid and then do something *about* it. Not go through live wallowing
in their own incompetence because nobody is calling them on their
idiocy.


A personal comment I've used repeatedly:

"I'm sick and tired of dealing with the consequences of stupid people
in charge of what they're not good at..."

Politics, Management, Marketing, Engineering -- the above applies to
all. The incompetent need to learn they're the problem -- and to get
out of the way so competence can return to human interaction.


Best I can do for now. <tm>


Bill

Steve N.
07-09-2005, 11:31 PM
Bill Drake wrote:

> Steve N. wrote:
>
>>Bill Drake wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Blackdog wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I have an Asus P4S800 MB and several USB 2.0 devices (like the
>>>>Alcatel DSL modem, a cordless logitech mouse and a logitech
>>>>webcam).
>>>>
>>>>My MB supports USB 2.0 (in the device manager I have the
>>>>enhanced host controllers). The OS is Windows XP Pro Portuguese
>>>>edition with SP2.
>>>>
>>>>The problem is that all the usb devices don't work when I restart
>>>>the windows. in the device manager it says that the device can't
>>>>initiate (code 10). If I unplug the device and plug it again in
>>>>another port (for example if I exchange the usb ports of the modem
>>>>and the webcam) it works fine, until the next time I turn off the pc and
>>>>restart the OS. So every time I turn the computer on I have to
>>>>unplug all the USB devices, otherwise the windows will take 15
>>>>minutes to start and none of the devices will initiate.
>>>>
>>>>Please, can someone please help me with this matter? Thanks in
>>>>advance =)
>>>
>>>
>>>There are some known problems with USB2 instantiation that occur
>>>when USB2 drivers are updated by Windows Updates. The problems
>>>manifest as unstable operation where USB2 port hardware "looks" like
>>>USB1 port hardware at startup -- and thus the devices don't properly
>>>instantiate in the desired operational mode.
>>>
>>>
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>>3. The first step is to ensure you are using the latest motherboard
>>> BIOS. The Plug-'n-Play managers in many of the older BIOS
>>> versions do *not* properly instantiate the USB2 ports in real
>>> mode before WXP starts up.
>>>
>>> As a result, it is impossible for the PnP manager to correctly
>>> enumerate the capabilities of the attached devices and report to
>>> the BIOS as to the capabilities of those devices.
>>>
>>> Consequently, the BIOS is "blind" to the boot-parameters of
>>> external Hard Disks, mice, keyboards and so on -- and therefore
>>> these devices simply don't function properly in DOS mode.
>>>
>>> The only proper fix for this is a BIOS update -- and this is the
>>> *absolute foundation requirement* for trouble free mixed USB1/2
>>> device operation with multiple devices attached to multiple USB
>>> ports.
>>
>><snip>
>>
>>Bill,
>>
>>I would not recommend updating the BIOS unless it can be verified that
>>the update specifically fixes the problem. I suggest you amend your
>>otherwise very good instructions to state that one should check their
>>BIOS version, compare it to available BIOS updates and investigate
>>whether or not the an update will correct a USB 2.0 issue before they
>>consider flashing the BIOS. Needlessly updating a system BIOS is not
>>really worth the risk, IMO.
>>
>>Steve
>
>
> Hi, Steve. I disagree with you on this.

Fine.

> The vast majority of
> *intractable*
> Windows problems are finally solved by motherboard BIOS updates.

Prove it with verifiable evidence please.

>
>
> Comment:
>
> If BIOS problems were solvable by work-arounds -- there would *be*
> no BIOS updates. Ergo, the reason BIOS updates exist is because
> they fix things that *no other procedure* can fix.

No, BIOS updates are available to fix SPECIFIC problems. If a BIOS
update does not fix a specific problem then it is not only a waste of
time but a risk better not taken.

>
> There is no logical reason for people to be afraid of BIOS updates.

Yes there is. A failed BIOS flash can (and often does) result in an
unusable system, requiring a replacement BIOS chip at least and a
motherboard replacement at worst. If the problem cannot be verified as
being solved by a BIOS update BEFORE such is attempted then it's a
wasted and possible disasterous effort.

<snip>

If you can't take constructive criticism offered in a friendly manner
from me then just say so and spare me the rest of the verbage; it
doesn't apply.

Steve

Bill Drake
07-09-2005, 11:31 PM
Steve N. wrote:
> Bill Drake wrote:
>
>> Steve N. wrote:
>>
>>> Bill Drake wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Blackdog wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> I have an Asus P4S800 MB and several USB 2.0 devices (like the
>>>>> Alcatel DSL modem, a cordless logitech mouse and a logitech
>>>>> webcam).
>>>>>
>>>>> My MB supports USB 2.0 (in the device manager I have the
>>>>> enhanced host controllers). The OS is Windows XP Pro Portuguese
>>>>> edition with SP2.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is that all the usb devices don't work when I restart
>>>>> the windows. in the device manager it says that the device can't
>>>>> initiate (code 10). If I unplug the device and plug it again in
>>>>> another port (for example if I exchange the usb ports of the modem
>>>>> and the webcam) it works fine, until the next time I turn off the
>>>>> pc and restart the OS. So every time I turn the computer on I
>>>>> have to unplug all the USB devices, otherwise the windows will take 15
>>>>> minutes to start and none of the devices will initiate.
>>>>>
>>>>> Please, can someone please help me with this matter? Thanks in
>>>>> advance =)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> There are some known problems with USB2 instantiation that occur
>>>> when USB2 drivers are updated by Windows Updates. The problems
>>>> manifest as unstable operation where USB2 port hardware "looks"
>>>> like USB1 port hardware at startup -- and thus the devices don't
>>>> properly instantiate in the desired operational mode.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>>> 3. The first step is to ensure you are using the latest motherboard
>>>> BIOS. The Plug-'n-Play managers in many of the older BIOS
>>>> versions do *not* properly instantiate the USB2 ports in real
>>>> mode before WXP starts up.
>>>>
>>>> As a result, it is impossible for the PnP manager to correctly
>>>> enumerate the capabilities of the attached devices and report to
>>>> the BIOS as to the capabilities of those devices.
>>>>
>>>> Consequently, the BIOS is "blind" to the boot-parameters of
>>>> external Hard Disks, mice, keyboards and so on -- and therefore
>>>> these devices simply don't function properly in DOS mode.
>>>>
>>>> The only proper fix for this is a BIOS update -- and this is the
>>>> *absolute foundation requirement* for trouble free mixed USB1/2
>>>> device operation with multiple devices attached to multiple USB
>>>> ports.
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> Bill,
>>>
>>> I would not recommend updating the BIOS unless it can be verified
>>> that the update specifically fixes the problem. I suggest you amend
>>> your otherwise very good instructions to state that one should
>>> check their BIOS version, compare it to available BIOS updates and
>>> investigate whether or not the an update will correct a USB 2.0
>>> issue before they consider flashing the BIOS. Needlessly updating a
>>> system BIOS is not really worth the risk, IMO.
>>>
>>> Steve
>>
>>
>> Hi, Steve. I disagree with you on this.
>
> Fine.
>
>> The vast majority of *intractable* Windows problems
>> are finally solved by motherboard BIOS updates.
>
> Prove it with verifiable evidence please.

Compaq Presario S6000NX. Client bought this "Refurbished"
at a local store. (Such a deal!) Brand spanking new out of the
box six weeks ago. System would not connect to external USB2
Hard Drive from DOS (using Ghost 2003) because the BIOS did
not properly instantiate USB2 Hardware on motherboard at startup.


BIOS update available from Compaq website. BIOS update has
NO MENTION of USB fixes at all. Has note of vague "iPod"
compatibility fix -- that I know relates to USB compatibility.

If I hadn't known that -- there is *nothing* in the documentation to
indicate a BIOS update as the fundamental requirement to attain
the desired compatibility.

You CANNOT trust the documentation on BIOS updates. Many of
the fixes are undocumented -- or so poorly documented that they
do not properly inform the user of the implications of that update.

Ergo -- do the update regardless. It *will* fix things that you
don't even know need fixing -- and that *will* save you endless
compatibility grief.


Note: You would have expected a "Refurbished" unit
to have the latest flashBIOS update available
at the time of refurbishment.

Nope... <insert reference to "Stupid people in
charge of what they're not good at">


Note2: Yet another flashBIOS update for the S6000NX,
released 5/11/2005. Yet more "iPod" fixes.
Hmmm. More USB2 fixes I'd bet. I'll have to
let the Client know...



>>
>> Comment:
>>
>> If BIOS problems were solvable by work-arounds -- there would *be*
>> no BIOS updates. Ergo, the reason BIOS updates exist is because
>> they fix things that *no other procedure* can fix.
>
> No, BIOS updates are available to fix SPECIFIC problems. If a BIOS
> update does not fix a specific problem then it is not only a waste of
> time but a risk better not taken.
>
>>
>> There is no logical reason for people to be afraid of BIOS updates.
>
> Yes there is. A failed BIOS flash can (and often does) result in an
> unusable system, requiring a replacement BIOS chip at least and a
> motherboard replacement at worst. If the problem cannot be verified
> as being solved by a BIOS update BEFORE such is attempted then
> it's a wasted and possible disasterous effort.
>

BIOS chips have a section called the "Boot Block". This section is
there *specifically* to handle recovery from a failed BIOS flash.

If a BIOS flash fails and is unrecoverable, this indicates the motherboard
has a bad flashBIOS chip. That needs to be sorted out *early* in the life
of the system -- while the motherboard can be replaced under warranty.

It makes no sense at all to delay this process to the point where the
first time the board is flashed is when it is far-out-of-warranty and the
user has no recourse.

As a matter of fact, I flash-update *every* motherboard I install as
the first thing I do -- before I start the OS install. If the mobo fails,
back it goes as defective -- and rightly so.


Note: I have had motherboards where the user brought me the
machine after already owning it for years. Consequently,
the first flash was done after the board was far out of
warranty -- and this was the point at which it was
discovered the flashBIOS chip was bad.

And yes, I then had to go through the pain of getting a
replacement flashBIOS chip. Such is life. The problem
is *not* insurmountable -- and it is *not* in the best
interest of the client to give advice which makes a
mountain out of this particular molehill.


> <snip>
>
> If you can't take constructive criticism offered in a friendly manner
> from me then just say so and spare me the rest of the verbage; it
> doesn't apply.
>

That wasn't for you only -- it applies to both the original poster and
lurkers. If *my* "constructive criticism" offends you or anybody
else -- then I suggest it hits too close to home for comfort.


EOT


Best I can do for now. <tm>


Bill

Steve N.
07-09-2005, 11:31 PM
Bill Drake wrote:

> Steve N. wrote:
>
>>Bill Drake wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Steve N. wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bill Drake wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Blackdog wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I have an Asus P4S800 MB and several USB 2.0 devices (like the
>>>>>>Alcatel DSL modem, a cordless logitech mouse and a logitech
>>>>>>webcam).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>My MB supports USB 2.0 (in the device manager I have the
>>>>>>enhanced host controllers). The OS is Windows XP Pro Portuguese
>>>>>>edition with SP2.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The problem is that all the usb devices don't work when I restart
>>>>>>the windows. in the device manager it says that the device can't
>>>>>>initiate (code 10). If I unplug the device and plug it again in
>>>>>>another port (for example if I exchange the usb ports of the modem
>>>>>>and the webcam) it works fine, until the next time I turn off the
>>>>>>pc and restart the OS. So every time I turn the computer on I
>>>>>>have to unplug all the USB devices, otherwise the windows will take 15
>>>>>>minutes to start and none of the devices will initiate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Please, can someone please help me with this matter? Thanks in
>>>>>>advance =)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>There are some known problems with USB2 instantiation that occur
>>>>>when USB2 drivers are updated by Windows Updates. The problems
>>>>>manifest as unstable operation where USB2 port hardware "looks"
>>>>>like USB1 port hardware at startup -- and thus the devices don't
>>>>>properly instantiate in the desired operational mode.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>>3. The first step is to ensure you are using the latest motherboard
>>>>> BIOS. The Plug-'n-Play managers in many of the older BIOS
>>>>> versions do *not* properly instantiate the USB2 ports in real
>>>>> mode before WXP starts up.
>>>>>
>>>>> As a result, it is impossible for the PnP manager to correctly
>>>>> enumerate the capabilities of the attached devices and report to
>>>>> the BIOS as to the capabilities of those devices.
>>>>>
>>>>> Consequently, the BIOS is "blind" to the boot-parameters of
>>>>> external Hard Disks, mice, keyboards and so on -- and therefore
>>>>> these devices simply don't function properly in DOS mode.
>>>>>
>>>>> The only proper fix for this is a BIOS update -- and this is the
>>>>> *absolute foundation requirement* for trouble free mixed USB1/2
>>>>> device operation with multiple devices attached to multiple USB
>>>>> ports.
>>>>
>>>><snip>
>>>>
>>>>Bill,
>>>>
>>>>I would not recommend updating the BIOS unless it can be verified
>>>>that the update specifically fixes the problem. I suggest you amend
>>>>your otherwise very good instructions to state that one should
>>>>check their BIOS version, compare it to available BIOS updates and
>>>>investigate whether or not the an update will correct a USB 2.0
>>>>issue before they consider flashing the BIOS. Needlessly updating a
>>>>system BIOS is not really worth the risk, IMO.
>>>>
>>>>Steve
>>>
>>>
>>>Hi, Steve. I disagree with you on this.
>>
>>Fine.
>>
>>
>>>The vast majority of *intractable* Windows problems
>>>are finally solved by motherboard BIOS updates.
>>
>>Prove it with verifiable evidence please.
>
>
> Compaq Presario S6000NX. Client bought this "Refurbished"
> at a local store. (Such a deal!) Brand spanking new out of the
> box six weeks ago. System would not connect to external USB2
> Hard Drive from DOS (using Ghost 2003) because the BIOS did
> not properly instantiate USB2 Hardware on motherboard at startup.
>
>
> BIOS update available from Compaq website. BIOS update has
> NO MENTION of USB fixes at all. Has note of vague "iPod"
> compatibility fix -- that I know relates to USB compatibility.
>
> If I hadn't known that -- there is *nothing* in the documentation to
> indicate a BIOS update as the fundamental requirement to attain
> the desired compatibility.
>
> You CANNOT trust the documentation on BIOS updates. Many of
> the fixes are undocumented -- or so poorly documented that they
> do not properly inform the user of the implications of that update.

This may be the case for the Compaq BIOS you've dealt with but has not
been typical of my experience.

>
> Ergo -- do the update regardless. It *will* fix things that you
> don't even know need fixing -- and that *will* save you endless
> compatibility grief.
>
>
> Note: You would have expected a "Refurbished" unit
> to have the latest flashBIOS update available
> at the time of refurbishment.
>
> Nope... <insert reference to "Stupid people in
> charge of what they're not good at">
>
>
> Note2: Yet another flashBIOS update for the S6000NX,
> released 5/11/2005. Yet more "iPod" fixes.
> Hmmm. More USB2 fixes I'd bet. I'll have to
> let the Client know...
>
>

This concerns a Compaq issue and in no way is documented proof of your
assertion:

"The vast majority of *intractable* Windows problems are finally solved
by motherboard BIOS updates."

>
>
>>>Comment:
>>>
>>>If BIOS problems were solvable by work-arounds -- there would *be*
>>>no BIOS updates. Ergo, the reason BIOS updates exist is because
>>>they fix things that *no other procedure* can fix.

I never said BIOS updates don't fix anything. Of course there are some
things that only a BIOS update can fix and I never said anything about
work-arounds. All I suggested was to research it in each specific case
before jumping into it.

>>
>>No, BIOS updates are available to fix SPECIFIC problems. If a BIOS
>>update does not fix a specific problem then it is not only a waste of
>>time but a risk better not taken.
>>
>>
>>>There is no logical reason for people to be afraid of BIOS updates.
>>
>>Yes there is. A failed BIOS flash can (and often does) result in an
>>unusable system, requiring a replacement BIOS chip at least and a
>>motherboard replacement at worst. If the problem cannot be verified
>>as being solved by a BIOS update BEFORE such is attempted then
>>it's a wasted and possible disasterous effort.
>>
>
>
> BIOS chips have a section called the "Boot Block". This section is
> there *specifically* to handle recovery from a failed BIOS flash.
>
> If a BIOS flash fails and is unrecoverable, this indicates the motherboard
> has a bad flashBIOS chip. That needs to be sorted out *early* in the life
> of the system -- while the motherboard can be replaced under warranty.

BIOS boot block code is only available on _some_ newer motheboards and
by no means is universal.

>
> It makes no sense at all to delay this process to the point where the
> first time the board is flashed is when it is far-out-of-warranty and the
> user has no recourse.
>
> As a matter of fact, I flash-update *every* motherboard I install as
> the first thing I do -- before I start the OS install. If the mobo fails,
> back it goes as defective -- and rightly so.

That is YOU doing it (and I am sure you know what you're doing) BEFORE
the machine is at a customer's home. A different scenario. I wouldn't
and haven't hesitated to flash a BIOS when I've deemed it necessary but
I also know what I'm doing, what precautions to take, etc., but I
hesitate recommending it to others before researching whether or not it
will actually fix their problem.

>
>
> Note: I have had motherboards where the user brought me the
> machine after already owning it for years. Consequently,
> the first flash was done after the board was far out of
> warranty -- and this was the point at which it was
> discovered the flashBIOS chip was bad.
>
> And yes, I then had to go through the pain of getting a
> replacement flashBIOS chip. Such is life. The problem
> is *not* insurmountable -- and it is *not* in the best
> interest of the client to give advice which makes a
> mountain out of this particular molehill.
>
>
>
>><snip>
>>
>>If you can't take constructive criticism offered in a friendly manner
>>from me then just say so and spare me the rest of the verbage; it
>>doesn't apply.
>>
>
>
> That wasn't for you only -- it applies to both the original poster and
> lurkers. If *my* "constructive criticism" offends you or anybody
> else -- then I suggest it hits too close to home for comfort.
>

My comment about taking constructive criticism from me was in light of
the fact that I said your advice was very good and it was a friendly
suggestion. It appears to me that you are going far out of your way to
attempt to justify something I don't agree with as if it was all
important and "hits too close to home for comfort" for you.

It is still not the best advice to give, *especially* since lurkers may
apply it to a non-applicable situation.

Many regulars here will agree with me that flashing the BIOS is not
something to take lightly. Of course there are exceptions but as general
advice I tend to discourage it unless it can be verified that a BIOS
flash *is* the solution and proper precautions are taken.

Steve


USB 2.0 - All devices don't initiate